Speaker 0 00:02 Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon everybody out there in podcast land. You are in tuned to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homies perspective. This is Hamza and today we are going to speak with a cycle analyst. She's actually been a professional cycle analyst for over 30 years. She has authored numerous articles, books on parenting, developmental psychology, clinical treatment, contemporary research. She has a, one of her books is busy parents guide to manage an anxiety, busy parents guide to energy, to managing anger. In addition to what we're going to talk about today, we are going to talk about narcissism and with her book. Are you living with a narcissist? How narcissistic men impact your happiness, how to identify them, and how to avoid raising one. I'm sure this is going to be enlightening for not only myself, but for everyone listening to this and share this with your friends, family that may benefit from this podcast. Without further ado, I'd like to welcome Dr Laurie Holman to the podcast. Welcome Dr Laurie. Speaker 0 01:19 Yes, yes, yes. I'm glad that you're able to make the podcast and what we're talking about today, it seems like a, I'd like for you to clear the air because it seems like narcissism is on the rise. Are we mislabeling people? Especially on social media, it seems like, Oh, that person's offhanded comment. You will say, that person's a narcissist, but how do we determine, you know, what's a narcissist versus somebody that's overly self confident? Speaker 1 01:48 Yeah, yeah. I, that's a really good way to start. , there are what I consider about 16 or 17 characteristics that I can tell you about with some examples. , but no one person ha must have all these characteristics. It's more like they have five or six and some have many more. , narcissism in itself is a spectr from normal narcissism, which is to love oneself, to have good self esteem, to pathological self esteem, pathological views of oneself, , that's focused on self-importance. And, , so there's what I call development aligned. , little kids are narcissistic. A three year old likes to dance in front of daddy. That's perfectly normal and he should give her a great audience. That's wonderful. , Speaker 1 02:45 if that need for admiration persists throughout life and into adulthood, , when one has ambitions and relationships, then we get into trouble. , but now the majority of people with narcissist, the actual narcissistic personality disorder often referred to as N P D RMN. , they are considered 50 to 75% of those who fulfill the criteria. So I'll be talking about men, but doesn't mean that women can't also have NPD. , so let me tell you about some of the main characteristics of the successful narcissistic man. Because often the, in my experience in my clinical experience, , these men are very successful and are very ambitious and are very accomplished. , so when they seek admiration, it looks like it makes sense. , it's just that it's excessive. So, , the outward success sometimes, , hides that deep inside. They feel inferior, interestingly enough. So they may come to therapy or, , seems to be suffering from depression because people in relationships with them threatened to leave them over years after awhile, they catch on. Speaker 1 04:23 , the word Gnosticism comes from a Greek myth about narcissist narcissist that people may have heard of. It's a man who sees his own reflection in a pool of water and falls in love with it. And one man in particular that I can think of said to me anytime I was talking about other people in his life, no, no, no, we're talking about me, me, me. And he really meant it and didn't see it as an odd thing to say. , but of course it helped clarify things for myself. , they exaggerate their self-importance, their attractiveness, which may not be physical but socially, , academically, professionally, and they think their personality is just the most charming person you've ever met. , so one characteristic is they do talk about themselves almost exclusively. , they tend to speak and think about themselves. Most of the time. They're conscious of how they look, their wealth if they have it, which often they do counts. Speaker 1 05:30 Achievements are often many, and they expect to hold your attention to these attributes as they speak rather than think about yourself. But at times these comments are exaggerated or at least overemphasize and not necessarily accurate reflections of their whole life. So even when they are based on reality, they're repeated endlessly. And those in their close environment hear the stories over and over. Every time they meet someone new, , we'll say a wife, they meet a new couple and the man jps into his experiences and he's very entertaining. So people enjoy listening and don't seek to have a focus. Turns on themselves. They're, they're kind of at a party and they enjoy hearing this very charming person who is centered on themselves but lacks empathy. They're unable to recognize or understand the needs and feelings of other people, but they don't see themselves that way. , a second characteristic is that they have fantasies of greatness. Speaker 1 06:39 So you may be very smart, very accomplished, but it doesn't make you greater than other people. It just makes you have a gift. , but the minds of those with MPD tend to be filled with elaborate fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty of the perfect mate. , and they do believe clearly that they should have the best of everything. And that may include houses, cars, clothes, , medical care where they attend school. , but the ironic thing, and this is why I actually have some passion for narcissists, is that these attempts or attempts to fend off a inner emptiness and a sense of shame instead of outwards special ness and sense of control that they reveal, they often don't know it because they're so constantly busy to keep themselves from knowing it. , I can think of a guy who was a neurosurgeon and, , really is a remarkable doctor. Speaker 1 07:48 , he's in my book, I call him Wade. , it's actually, he has another profession, but I give him this profession in the book, uh, which is comparable to his own. And, , this is a very super knowledgeable man. I mean, he sits on the computer at night for hours learning everything about everything. So when he goes out and he has a great memory, so when he goes out socially, any topic that comes up, he becomes the expert. And of course, people admire that and want to hear all the details and his wife listens to him drone on and kicks him under the table. , because she knows that in time, if he keeps this up, people are really just being polite. They don't want to hear the same stories a hundred times. , but he doesn't know that he doesn't, he's seriously doesn't know it. , he'd be surprised to hear that idea and think that you're just way off base, but they kind of lack an inner core. Speaker 1 08:50 And I've heard younger narcissists, like 20 year olds who are much more flexible, , actually say I don't have an inner core. I kid actually said that to me. He said, I don't know. Yeah, because he was so busy building this persona that never actually got to know himself. You know, he, I'm diverting a little, but he had narcissistic parents who viewed him as a child prodigy, which he was really brilliant little boy. , as a teenager, he was fluent in Chinese as well as in regular English. , you know, at a very young age, he was reading constantly. , and this made his parents feel like they were really important too. So instead of like sort of stemming the tide and let him think of others, he never learned to share. He was terrible in preschool. He was a real temper tantr kid and , grew up without containing this sense of powerfulness. Speaker 1 09:56 , so they come to believe that they are superior and often have this grandiose sense of self importance. If you're in tune to it, you kind of can see it is like an air of self importance. , that leads them to feel superior to others. , and they want to be in the company of people they consider great. , they believe that only others who are just as special as they perceive they are should be in their company. They maintain feelings of superiority by often disparaging others, focusing very quickly on other's floors, , real or imagined. But often they have their own floors that are hidden deep inside and that's why this okay will picking them up and other people, , so they hide their own shortcomings and preserve, preserve this grand self-image, , interrupt anytime. , Speaker 2 10:55 no, sure. It's a good stream of consciousness because I mean you're, what you're identifying, it seems like, I mean, obviously it's, it's a diagnosis, but there seems to be a pervading belief that on some level, at least in the business world, you know, that you have to have some level of this too, to outwit your competitors and to be the top of the food chain. Speaker 1 11:20 Absolutely. Absolutely. You are a winner and the world is divided into winners and losers and nothing's in between. So in order to keep up that belief about themselves, they required a constant praise. , in my book I talk about a young woman named Laura, , who must continuously appraise her lawyer husband's accomplishments. And he, he's a personal injury lawyer in the book and his accomplishments are fantastic. , this is a man who in real made $6 million on one case and was written up. , so, you know, it's kind of hard to have that kind of success and not have it affect you. But, , this outward confidence that resolves can often hide the vulnerability and fragile self-esteem. Remarkably, even if you make that money, you don't know you're going to make it again and that and that it leads to self doubt. , so they continually prop themselves off and expect and need constant attention, praise and admiration. Speaker 1 12:30 , they do expect to be recognized as superior even when their achievements don't want it. I mean, these people aren't always, , brilliant in every respect, but they of course focus everybody on what they are. Brilliant. , another characteristic is they experience a sense of entitlement that they are certain they deserve. , the board I was talking about before, , the child prodigy at had a very large, very large family and each time a sibling was born, he took it almost as a personal insult that his mother couldn't attend to him as fully as the siblings. And he saw, he was always angry at her. They were in a constant battle. And, , he sought to compensate by having status wealthy friends, which he couldn't achieve very well because people didn't like him and he knew it. And that was, that's really tough. I mean, I fell for him because he, it's like a person walking blind. Speaker 1 13:41 They don't know what they're doing wrong because they feel this so completely expecting others will offer them special favors and fulfill the requests immediately without question. And if they aren't treated that way, they become very irritable and impatient and angry. , some of these men are very passive aggressive and that they give silent treatment when they don't feel what they regard as what they should have as their own. , I've seen these men not talk to their wives for days. I mean really silence. You know, they have what they call their own room and they go in it and, , they just don't speak for days until maybe something rains and they get back into the fold. Speaker 1 14:32 That was children. They were often very demanding camper tantrs and needed insatiable attention. , a third characteristic is they do take advantage of other people. So they direct others in their lives, especially in intimate relationships to always have regard their interest in their activities. They do not like to be idle, to be idle as to feel something inside. So they're really busy and they're on the move and they've seen people who can afford it. The every concert, every show. , every form of entertainment you can imagine. And they expect their wives and even the children to come with them. , and everybody isn't always interested. You know, a seven year old doesn't want to go to a concert. , but they don't get it. That's the blind spot that I guess I want to emphasize. Now, they often do have longterm relationships because I'll talk about the women later or the spouses later and they may be disloyal to their spouses and friends and they may lie and they may cheat. Speaker 1 15:42 And this is a big question Mark, whether they have remorse. I'm in treatment over time. Like the young board, I talked about the 20 something year olds. He definitely did have remorse for the way he treated his siblings once he was older and he looked at the effects on them. He was sorry, but that took a lot of years of treatment. , a man who cheats on his wife and has a secret affair that she really doesn't know anything about, maybe for 20 years. , suddenly finds out through some quirk of somebody else telling her and she's shocked and, and it's a very despairing feeling because you feel like, who have I been married to all these years? , but the question is, once it's known and out in the open, can they have remorse? Can they feel badly for the person they have so horribly hurt? Speaker 1 16:40 Some can, some cans. And this is where we get into the fine line of the difference between a narcissist and what other people call sociopath or psychopath, which is not my expertise. But I do know the difference. , I would not see a psychopath because that could be a violent person and that would legitimately scare me. , and I'm not trained in that, but the narcissist, I don't see it. , it's not the person is in violence. The person just has this regard for others and they're very envious of others. , that's another common characteristic because of their low self esteem and need to be superior. They see people who have things they don't, including tangible items, , that gives them status or admiration as threats to their well-being. They want what they want and they want it when they want it and will seek vengeance in some way, , towards other people who don't come into their favor, so to speak. Speaker 1 17:47 , they relish obviously being the center of attention. This is what they need. And then you'd come to praise from others just like food to them. , it's feeds their self esteem and makes them an, I should say, uh, strengthens their sense of superiority at others. So they crave that attention and seek it out very effectively in a charming way. They're wonderful conversationalist. , they feel very prone to talk about themselves. They may exaggerate their knowledge and accomplishments and, and, and lots of people do that socially. , but they believe what they're saying. , they don't say, Oh, , you know, just kinda kidding. I didn't quite do that. , they would never say that. , they crave their aspiration. There's an arrogance that sometimes draws people to them actually. , but they do live in it if you want to feel for them. Imagine living in a world where you fear not always being admired and accepted that keeps you on guard. Speaker 1 18:54 You know, you constantly search for this, uh, for fear that you'll fall apart without it. , they lack empathy. That's a critical, , characteristic. They're unable to empathize with others and understand other people's perspective to comprend that others may have struggles of their own. , they seem to have an inability to recognize the needs and feelings of others. , yet they have it. They're smart. They know this, the script that sounds emphatic. , often the physicians are very, , comforting to their patients who adore them. , they know what to say and when to say it. The question is, do they feel it? And somebody who is in dire straits is going to believe this person who encourages them. So, , cause they need to, so they're not, you know, caught, it's not apparent that this is sort of a script sometimes. , when marital relations have brought to me, I do have to, , a true person with NPD who will not emphasize with his partner. Speaker 1 20:16 , I almost do have to give him a script to make the other person feel better, you know, tell them. Wow. Yeah. In other words, when you're listening to you, I'll say, man and wife, when you're listening to your wife, , paraphrase what she just said in her words, she knows. You understand. Now a caring person does that because he wants the person to know. They understand. But this man will do it because he knows it's effective and very hard to tell a difference until years. It can be years and years of M a relationship. They also have boundless ambitions, much of which they fulfill. , they fantasize about not only doing their best, but being the best. And this is important for parents who always say, thinking they're helping their, the child just to your best. Don't worry. Just try, do your best. The narcissistic person hears that as be the best or you fail. Speaker 1 21:19 So they often, if they fall short, they're enraged and deeply disappointed and may feel depressed, depressed because they aren't as powerful as they think they should deserve to be. , so underneath they're incredibly insecure. You know, the boy I mentioned earlier who says, I don't know who I am. It's very scary to feel that way. , it may be counter-intuitive when you first meet a narcissist because they come across so charming, so entitled, so believing is superior. , but they're very insecure actually. , and I constantly wary of being put down. , instead they disparage others. , they may internally at times question very briefly, if they're truly special and unique and then very, I don't, I can't say how fast they dismiss these feelings. They're able to do that. That is their, , safety guard, so to speak. , another characteristic is that they are remarkably charming and they, uh, a doctor, let's say, or a lawyer will think he's charming, his staff who's actually going to Zurich because they have work to do and he doesn't recognize it. Speaker 1 22:41 , so when he comes out from an appointment, he overplays what he accomplished and he makes his secretaries listen and they're afraid not to because they want to keep their jobs and they want to give the admiration. They know the doctor wants. But meanwhile they get bind on their work and end up saying, wait, so you know, it isn't really working. But the narcissist doesn't know that. They think that they're the successful leaders, which they often are assertive, but demanding and often don't have as many followers as they expect. They should have. , they do a lot of networking and expect to be extremely popular and gets deeply depressed when this doesn't happen. , in keeping with this, they're very competitive. Uh, as I mentioned before, that you've realized yourself that they are, there are winners and losers. Others are opponents, so all win or lose, , and if that doesn't happen, they may hold long lists and grudges. Speaker 1 23:45 They don't know how to reconcile with reality, so to speak. , the young man I spoke of, uh, at first, earlier in treatment and he was in college, he blamed his peers who excluded him from very, , status oriented societies, uh, that were at his college. And in order to, , kind of bear the fact that he, he was not chosen, he lived to be chosen, , he would gossip about them. Now this was done ventrally but of course it turned back against him. , he thought that GFI tell so-and-so that, , this boy did something harmful or person, then I'll get her on my side. But really that person becomes afraid because they're afraid they'll be gossips about ugly, you know, so they ended up just the meaning of the people. And in the process they find criticism pretty intolerable for themselves. Or I'm even, I tend to soften it. Speaker 1 24:58 It is intolerable for them. , they're unable to cope and things don't go their way. They're hard pressed to admit fault when they're wrong, very hard pressed to admit fault when they're wrong. They can change the subject faster than you could ever believe it and you don't even know what happened. , so that they don't have to tolerate criticism even if it's constructive. , they Crow, they hold the criticizer up as the person who made them the loser rather than seeing that they did something wrong. And often in response, they're what's called passive aggressive, which is often seen as silent treatment. , they will ignore someone for a long term, long time, hours, days. And when parents, narcissistic parents do this, the kids is, it's really very harmful. , another issue is that they are constantly on the go so they don't feel bore them cause that's a scary experience for them. Speaker 1 26:00 So like I said, they attend concerts, plays expensive dinners, procedures, parties, , because they don't want to be idle and they expect their wives or partners to constantly attend all these activities and they go on these grand vacations and their partner can't relax. You're not allowed to sit in a hotel and watch TV for an hour, you know, you, , has to be continuously on nego. There is no tourist site in the world that you missed. , so they need total control. And often they do that with social media. , so the doctor was a lawyer. Even he's as busy and accomplished as he is. He's texting his wife all day long and expecting immediate text back. Even if she was professional and she's busy, they want to be responded to immediately. They want others to follow. , so they can be the leaders. , they expect others to drop what they're doing so they can respond to their constant context. It's their schedule. It matters that, as I said, they made you kind things, but it's not at a deep caring for others, but to be perceived that way. , I can think of an example of a man who was, his birthday was being celebrated and this was like really important. I mean, we love our birthdays to be celebrated. Speaker 1 27:30 this was a utmost importance. And when he was at a gathering and somebody at the table started talking about something other than him, he literally got up out of the table and walked away. And the person who spoke ironically felt like he did something wrong because we're all, most of us are pretty kind. And so he felt, gosh, that he got up and walked away and it's his birthday. What did I do? But he didn't do anything, you know. , he just wasn't highlighting the importance of the special person that night. So they walk out on any crowd, , give them the silent treatment if they disappointed and many guests go along with it feel they shouldn't just disappoint this self acclaimed star and as I said, will berate themselves mercilessly if things don't go according to the North assistance plan. So that, that I hope gives you a good solid picture of this very confused person. Very Speaker 2 28:35 great foundation for sure. Thank you for that. And as you were talking, I mean it sounds like there is a wide range of emotions and of course everyone experienced with them, but it just seems to the extreme. And is there a relationship between this boundless ambition with being very insecure and its relationship with the increasing rate of suicide? Jay, Speaker 1 29:03 that's a very good question. , I don't have a, you know, one-on-one, an absolute answer to it. , but when these people fall emotionally, they do fall very deeply. , but when they suffering like that, they do seek treatment or their, , spouses insist on it. So, , I, I actually, in 40 years of work, I've never had a SU, a patient who committed suicide. So it's not an expertise, fortunately for me. , but I don't know if we can go to that extent to say that they're more suicidal than other potentially depressed people. , I guess that's my answer. Speaker 2 29:57 Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm asking one, uh, you know, I think a celebrity just ha had that happen or did that this past week. And usually at the end, most of us don't have any answers. And from the outside are like, wow, they had this boundless ambition. Everything looked great on the surface and you don't, like you said, if they're so busy, you don't get to see where they're, you know, down in the doldrs and very insecure. Speaker 1 30:21 Exactly, exactly. I mean, in that kind of situation, there's often a lot of drug use to , help them sustain this exhilarated feeling if they aren't getting from you feel enough. And that obviously, , starts to damage their brain and they're not in reality anymore. Speaker 2 30:45 I was watching Bill Maher, uh, a week ago and Katie Turk was on and are you familiar with the show? Speaker 1 30:53 A little bit. Speaker 2 30:55 Little bit. Okay. So C was on, it's a political show. So anyway, she's a blue blood and in New York and the leader leader of the first world is two. And she was kind of making a comment that, uh, you know, he always wanted to be a part, he couldn't play in the reindeer games. You know, you will always see outcasts even though he was exhibiting all of the pathologies that you're highlighting. And people kind of just looked at it for what it was. So it's like, no matter what I accomplished, I still can't get into that inner circle. Speaker 1 31:27 Uh huh. Yeah, that's, that's very disheartening. It's a really mild word. , the person really suffers from that, but usually it's other people who want to get in his world. That's, that's more like Speaker 2 31:46 gotcha. Cause it's when you were saying that the 20 year old made it sound like, or the way I interpreted it was there's this leadership group, right. And it's kind of that peer thing that you go through and in school and I'm always on the outside no matter what. And so I'm, I'm led to, like you were saying, backbiting or whatever to kind of give me a leg up even though it backfires. Speaker 1 32:10 Exactly. Exactly. , that particular board really did change though. And that's, that's the wonderful thing about youth, , that they are more flexible. They are, if they feel that this is the treatment, , that I favor, which is to really help the person feel listened to and heard. And they really have not had that, , as they grew up. And if you do that consistently, in other words, don't constantly fix them. Really listen, show them you're listening. Let them feel heard. They start to trust you. And legitimately so because I'm a trustworthy person and I'm really not judging them, I'm trying to help them and sensitive. They know it, they, they see the genuine effort over months and sometimes years. And you become the only person they trust, but at least they have one person and they've learned about trust. So it's, it's fascinating when, when that board, I keep coming back to him because I cared so much about him, uh, finished his treatment. , I wish I could have recorded, not really, but his gratitude that this narcissistic 20 year old by 26 could say thank you. You know, in his words, he said what you did for me. And he used the word seismic. , and Speaker 1 33:48 he said he never really felt understood before. And you know, he grew up in a family with narcissistic parents and he wasn't understood. He was almost used, make them feel grand. , and he came to grips with reality. He had magnificent image, uh, fantasy hit the beginning of wanting to work in the white house, which he might someday. , but he looked, he went to a very prestigious college and there he discovered he was not in fact the smartest because everybody was smart and tailors his ambitions to reality as he got older because he was in treatment. , so he did, he's not going to go to Harvard. He is law school, which is what was his dream. He, he runs, it's okay. You know, he can go to NYU. I don't know where you're from, but you know, he go to Fort, you can get a good education and, , feel confident in that. And that was just remarkable. He really was remarkable. Speaker 2 34:58 No, I wouldn't stay with him for a second. I want to stay with a 20 year old for a second, because it sounds like he broke the cycle, right? Yeah. And so what was the first step? Because I can only imagine, uh, one thing that I used to, one movie I used to like was Ricky Bobby, and we'll, we'll Farrel always said if you're not first or last, and that was kind, kinda the same forever. And if his parents are narcissistic, right, or they exhibit that bavior, you're seeing as a loser or that's kind of a, you're valuable if you seek professional help. So what was it that made this child, you know, block that response that he was getting from his parents and still seek treatment? Speaker 1 35:41 Oh, actually they wanted to do because they were over WellMed with his rage. And, , they honestly didn't know how to cope. , and they knew they didn't know how to cope. So it was not only for him that they wanted help. I hope that's what propelled them, but they wanted it for themselves. You know, he was ruining their lives and he was so, , difficult to be with. , and that persisted all through high school. And so he had before me, he had multiple therapists, , who he didn't feel understood by who probably didn't really get narcissism. And, , so it was like kind of failure as a failure. So by the time he came to me, his parents really wanted, I mean, they, they were shocked if the end, his mother sent me a note saying, I can't believe you took him out of the status filled bubble. I didn't take her out of this, but I took him. Speaker 2 36:53 But she picked it. She, she knew what that was about. So sure. Speaker 1 36:57 So these people, these parents do want their kids to have health. They do. Speaker 2 37:02 Well, let me ask the other side of it, and I want to get your opinion because of the scandal last year with parents paying for, they're paying for their kids to get into school. Even if they didn't have the Scholastic acen, they were still getting in. So it's more of you need to be with the right people. You're smart, you're brilliant. Uh, what's your take on the percentage of those that go with the flow versus, you know what, I don't, I don't subscribe to this and I want out. Speaker 1 37:30 Yeah. I, , there's a couple in my, in my book who had great differences of opinion about that. , wife is a pediatrician, so she's very successful, but self-made. You grew up very poor. She paid for her huge education and was really good at her job. And her husband as a neurosurgeon thought his job was far more impressive than hers and anybody know that. , and he was, you know, really off base and her very hurtful, but his kids interesting enough, grew up having this very entitled feeling and they were not good. Studiers they, he was a hard worker, but he wasn't as brilliant as he thought. And the kids weren't brilliant, so they didn't succeed. They really didn't succeed, , in high school and went to, , kind of low level colleges, I guess you'd say. But you know, they went to college, but he would write their papers and , do their homework in high school and in college. And when they got jobs, when they graduated, he would do them on the phone. So they would stand out at work and now they really do see, he believed this was okay because they really did learn from him. It was like having your own private tutor your whole life, right? Speaker 2 39:01 Yeah. Speaker 1 39:02 But the wife really objective, she could see the emotional consequences to her kids and they, they warn about this endlessly. , whereas he felt my so-and-so wouldn't have been so achieving as whatever she did if I had gotten her the contacts and told her how to uh, relate to people and not in a kind way but in an effective way. And , it worked. She was able to accomplish. So to him he did a good thing and incense, he, if he had done it more mildly, we do want parents to help kids with their homework. We do want parents to support their kids' abilities. , but his was so extreme that he was taking control. And actually that doesn't raise your child's self esteem. They feel totally dependent and that's not a great way to grow up. Speaker 2 40:07 Sure. So we talked about the 20 year old, let's go to the 40 year old and I, this is a 1.5 question. So in the corporate environment, there's a lot of demands and if you are part of that cream that rises to the top and you have done with ambition, your time is pretty much taken. I mean you're working like 16 hours a day so it, but the other side of that, that 0.5 part of this question is corporate, at least in some environments it's better or it's frowned upon if your finger hold on that. So they really encourage that you're married. However, it seems like a conflict of interest. If you're have this allegiance to this corporation or your own business, you know, if you're a self starter, how do you, how do this narcissist balance? Speaker 1 40:53 They don't, they really don't. I mean the man I was saying who did all the homework for his kids forever. , when they were young, he really ignored them because his ambitions for what must, he was younger too and he was very ambitious. And I remember having this conversation, he would come home and walk in the house talking on his cell phone and his kids were little. And I said, how do you think they feel seeing daddy who's agonist all day on the phone? And he said, if he didn't understand the question, , you know, and I said, could you finish that phone call in the car and then it away so that when you walk in you can show your excitement and seeing them hear about their day. And he thought I was just like Speaker 1 41:42 from another planet, you know, he really didn't. And he, his wife of course, sitting there shaking her head because she knew just what I meant. , so they, they, , but see this was a guy who did feel some remorse once he saw the kids failing in high school. It's just his way. And he realized he wasn't there for them when they were young, but his way of helping them was to feel superior to him himself. So he didn't have to do it. , the corporate environment does encourage it. And these kids who come out of, , uh, this isn't in my book particularly, but let's say the kids would come out of Wharton as the university of Pennsylvania who are, you know, really learn business and they go work for these very large investment corporations. They make so much money because they work double time. It's overwhelming and a lot of them do cut out and do other things after a few years because they realize they've chosen a life that excludes almost everything else. They're never having fun. Everything is status oriented and those kids are fortunate they find themselves. , and you don't see that in a 50 year old because this much salute, you know, at that point. Mmm. Speaker 1 43:14 But, , I don't want to, you know, in today's environment, , it's very tricky because we are vilifying people who are very wealthy, some of who are still Speaker 3 43:32 great Speaker 1 43:33 and we want to, you know, tax them so they can help pay the tuition of everyone else. And you know, I do believe in that, but these are people who are usually quite remarkable philanthropists. So if you look at somebody like bill Gates, I mean, he does amazing things and well may envy him and disparage him for being so wealthy, but here it, you know, so we have to kind of figure out where we stand on these things and not view everybody the same way, but really look at the individual. Speaker 2 44:14 Gotcha. And when you look at the individual, I think what I'm, if I read between the lines, there's that disconnect with discipline and the wealthy, as you're saying on some respect, has a lot of disciplines. And so there may be resentment to those that are not, and they don't empathize with them. They're like, look, I look what I had to do to make where I am. And you did it. So, uh, why are you penalizing me? Speaker 1 44:38 Yeah. Yeah. They are hard workers. , most of these people, some are have grandiose visions and they aren't hard workers and they don't succeed. But many really doing really do work hard all the time but at a sacrifice to intimate relationships cause they're not available Speaker 2 44:56 when, so when the, the, we did a wide jp from 20 to 40, but those are usually the data years. So can you identify someone as you were mentioning, these people are already married and the spouse may you, like you said they've been at it for years, dealing with this person. What are, what are some things that, uh, that a person that's in the 20 to 40 year old dating realm, what are some, uh, triggers or some different characteristics that they can keep an eye out for, to see, Oh, this person may be going in this direction? Speaker 1 45:31 Okay. , what I'll do is I'll focus on the women who fall for narcissistic man and have 20, 30, 40 year relationships with them. , that's your woman is often called codependent, meaning she needs to be attached to a man she admires. So when they meet, he rues her, he pursues her, he says, break that date and come out with me. And she does because she feels special and this is what she is making herself worth out of. So she often is incorrectly self-deprecating, underestimating her own abilities and following this man's dictates without questioning it. So she minimizes or dismisses her own needs. , these, I mean there's certainly very capable women. I said one was a pediatrician and other was a homemaker, but a wonderful mother. , you too easily her ma, her husband's domination. , his verb both, excuse me if we're both talking about himself, this needs a charge, take charge of all their activities. Speaker 1 46:42 She tolerated his silent treatment when his needs weren't met. She saw this as what marriage was. So, , she may have had narcissistic parents, so she was accustomed to this and didn't realize there really was another world out there. , it'd be a really nice person, very socially agreeable and make friends easily. But he would view her friends as commonplace. They're just regular people. , but his friends would come first and were elevated. , she is likely to want to stay with him because it, if she can build her own self esteem, which is why these women often come into treatment because when they're in their forties and they know that they as part of them knows they're very capable, they don't feel it and they get depressed or very anxious and , they are suffering. So they seek help. And then the job of the therapist is really to help them find and appreciate their own abilities, their own gifts. Speaker 1 47:51 And by not only supporting us and even identifying it, , these women then come to feel disenchanted with the man who's disparaging them cause they realize they are worthwhile people too. And that's when the marriage and in the extreme, that's when they may discover that the North assist they've been living with has been having an affair or many affairs and they were totally blind to it. They just accepted. He was at working all the time and , are shocked when it's revealed and that puts every up in everybody's life. , he still wants to feel special in Grande. He just wants her to accept it. He says so soft. Some Jews, some don't. , and some women can kind of take on a good belief in themselves and expand their lives, their friendships, their accomplishments, and feel like individual. , they may or may not stay in the marriage. It depends on how invested they are, particularly in the children's lives, , at that point and their way of life. , but they're seeing themselves differently. They are, they go through quite a tremendous, , struggle and change. Speaker 2 49:26 And that, that actually led me to the next question because what we're talking about is their traditional marriage, right? The nuclear family, if you will be, uh, June Cleaver and ward goes off to work and she kisses him on the cheek. He knows how to conquer the world. Uh, however, in 2020, you know, with this boundless ambition and what have you, and he's highly demanding corporate jobs. You have women in these roles. And so are they choosing, not if they're exhibiting this NPD, are they choosing not to being a marriage because they're, they're like, why would I marry a guy in a less station than I am? Speaker 1 50:05 That is what, I'm sorry. Speaker 2 50:07 That is an illustration of life, like socially. Oh, Oh, Oh, Speaker 1 50:12 , well they begin to question what they've done because their ambitions are being fulfilled to, , , they no longer rely on the man to make them feel great. They get their own praise in your own admiration. , if the man can learn to be flexible, there are great paths. There are, you know, a really winning team. , but, , if she feels really underappreciated, she's going to look for someone who will, , see her as she is. So she will leave. But divorce is such a difficult process that some people do stay in the marriage and some marital therapist, I'm not one, but some try to believe that the marriage stay together, that the woman should, , forgive the man for his trans transgression. And of course, this is a whole national issue. , Speaker 0 51:18 sure. Well, the other side of that I, I was just thinking how at the beginning of the top of the hour, we were talking about the corporate environment rewarding that bavior. And I, I've seen where, especially from for women that if they, you know, tuck, tie the line to the corporate excellence, they're rewarded. But if they had at they're pregnant or something like that, they not necessarily get demoted, but they get off that fast track. So the, it seems like the corporate environment doesn't allow for that balance either. Like you can't be the top earner and a housewife. Speaker 1 51:57 Yeah. Or they do try to do the impossible. I was writing for Huffington post for quite awhile and I did a, , series of interviews online with professional women and, , ask them about various questions. And interesting, they were all very successful dentists, gynecologists, lawyers, , high earners. They all had kids. , some made more money than their husbands, highly educated. But you know, with the bottom line they said they cared mostly about the mothers and , that didn't keep them from doing their occupations, but they kept their minds on motherhood. And it was, they had to figure out how to do both and they did. , I kind of fit into that category. I have wonderful children and I love being read mother. , and I prioritize it. And so that was my way of kind of dealing with this issue. , but some women exceed their han limitations and fall apart. Speaker 1 53:18 No, you can't. It's very hard to be the perfect mother, the perfect corporate person all at the same time. You know, you end up sleeping three hours a night so that you can get up early and do your work and then be there to make breakfast for your child going off to school. So you can't, I mean, you just can't live like that. , Arianna Huffington in fact wrote a book, I forget the name of it, but she apparently had an exhaustion breakdown. She ended up in the hospital because she was trying to do all that. , so, you know, I, I, I'd look out for the young women that I need, , to help them find what, what do you really want to prioritize at what time in your life? You know, we don't have to do the same thing at 20 that we do at four and you, that we do at 60, we can change our careers, we can change our, , priorities. , and that helps a lot of women to learn and see other women do that. Speaker 0 54:24 That was my next question. As far as group group therapy, do you handle that as well? Like it sounds like a lot of these groups hang, hang out together and if that one person was courageous to take that first step, they may bring the whole group with them. Speaker 1 54:38 Yeah. Yeah. You need new mentors or people, women seem to find them. , , I've kind of shifted gears from writing nonfiction to fiction lately and so I'm, I'm writing novels and, , they're really character studies. They have, I hope, good plots and they're suspenseful. , but they show, I th it gives me an opportunity to create characters who learn how to change and how to, , see clearly their lives and know they have many opportunities. , it's not real life, it's fiction, but, , I'm enjoying writing about it. Speaker 0 55:28 Sure. And, and I guess the last question in real life, I mean, you're, you're balancing all that you have a successful practice, but you're also in your, like you said, a mother and a grandmother, but you're also an accomplished artists. So how do you juggle all of these? Speaker 1 55:43 , well, , the way I did it was when my kids were little, , and I was practicing, I organized my practice around their needs cause I personally did not want to miss out. I wanted to be there after school, so I did not have a three o'clock appointment. , and when they were in high school, I would drive my kids to school before they had licenses because I wanted to spend time with them and then I'd come home and go to my office. , so you've kind of find your own ways of doing everything without, with being careful that you don't get overwhelmed. , cause that's too easy. , and I had a very supportive husband, so, , I also had have an office in my house. I have a, , what do you call it? Egg, , studio in our studio at my home. , that my husband actually built for me. , so that logistically I am not on the road commuting everywhere and that helps me, me personally to, , put everything together. Speaker 0 57:05 No, that's, that's phenomenal. And, and so when others want to, I mean, you have sound, it sounds like you have laid out a template that it can actually work. You can be highly ambitious and balanced and live a successful life. And for those that are running to, are identifying narcissist in their relationships, guys or girls, how would they get in touch with you and how to me, I'd like for you to highlight your books and your website and all that good stuff. Speaker 1 57:32 Okay. , the newest book, which is coming out earlier than I expected you mentioned is coming out. , March 17th, so it's already on Amazon. , how do you live with a narcissist? And that book has many, many examples of situations that I think are helpful for, , men and women to read. , there's a section, , for women telling the, uh, not telling them but you know, advising them on ways to, uh, take actions to feel more self confidence themselves. There's a section that talks about how not to raise the narcissist. , and I hope that book really, , is appealing to people and clarifies, uh, the characteristics that we talked about. , my website is very simple, is Laurie,L a U R I E Holleman, H O L L M a N P H d.com. And if you go on it, all the books are there and over a hundred articles, I'm on all different parenting and a personality disorder topics so that people can read them without buying anything. Speaker 1 59:00 , there are links to everything. And, , I, you know, I hope people do that because, or subscribe to my blog, which I'm not using as a marketing tool, but really just to put articles out there that I want. , then you get the article in your email, you know, it's easy. , and when people use my website, well, it's a big support for them. And, , that's really my intention. , , I love writing. , I'm doing it more and more. I do it almost every day now. , but the reason I've been kind of encouraged to do that is so that what people have learned in my practice, they can also learn by reading on their own. And, , it's actually the publisher who suggested I write this, the series for parents, the busy parents series, because most families today have two working parents. And how did they manage to use what I call principle intelligence? That's the concept that I, uh, created when they're very busy. And so I show them how they can do that. , so they have a kind of template like you use that as good word. , to know about how to look at their child, not as bad, but distress and understand the meaning bind their behavior. And I teach them how to do that. , so all these books are, I wouldn't say not fluffy self help books. I do take time, but, , they really do educate and that's my aim. Speaker 0 00:45 And it sounds like you, you definitely are doing that and you have just been in soon to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homeys perspective. This is Hamza and dr Lori Homan. It was a pleasure. Let's stay in touch. Speaker 1 01:00 Oh yes. I'd love to. I really like your, , your website and your focus. , and also I should mention easy way to find my books is just to go to Amazon. They're all, they're just, you know, put my name in the search box and so will be this says, , and this Amazon asks you to write a whole biography. So all that stuff is there too. Speaker 0 01:23 Fantastic. Well, thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Are wonderful as how yourself actually. Thank you. Take care. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.