Hero And Heroes Worship – What Kobe Bryant’s Death Tells Us About Heroes – Andrew Bernstein PhD – Interview

Hero And Heroes Worship – What Kobe Bryant’s Death Tells Us About Heroes – Andrew Bernstein PhD – Interview
Speaker 0    00:02    Good morning, good evening, good afternoon everybody out there in podcast land, you are in tuned to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homeys perspective. This is Hamza and really excited about our guest today. We're actually going to talk about Kobe, Kobe Bryant to be topical. We're going to talk about uh, why his death, what does it tell us about heroes? Uh, is there a hero archetype? Why has he, why did his premature death impact us so much and why do athletes always be looked or why do we always look up to athletes as heroes? Those are just some of the questions we're going to get from our guest. He is a doctor, Andrew Bernstein and he is the author of his latest published book, which is heroes, legends and champions. Why heroism matters. We're going to talk about what heroes are, how they are distinguished from non heroes and why mankind meets them.  

Speaker 0    00:59    Without further ado, like the welcome Andrew to the podcast homicide, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. Before we get started, I do have to ask you if you watch basketball and if you do, did you see the game last night between LeBron and Zion Williamson? No, the, I mean I love basketball but I didn't see the game and I, we know LeBron's a stud has been for a long time and Zion is just, he's off the charts man. If that kid can stay healthy, he's going to rewrite the record book in the NBA. He's really something. So what happened? Absolutely. Well no, it was kind of like we're, I guess we're going to talk about in this podcast about the hero archetype because like you said, he, he, he has so much potential as ion does at 19 years old and there were some of that like is that going to be a passing of the guard? And so LeBron hadn't scored 40 points. I'm a very long time, but he did last night and it was kind of like, you're going to have your day Zion, but just not today. The King is not yet ready to abdicate. That is, that's exactly what happened last night.  

Speaker 0    02:19    Well the Lakers may play for the title this year. I doubt the pelicans will. So, you know, a Xeljanz day is going to have to wait as far as winning championships goes. Absolutely. And so since you are a basketball fan, I literally talk about the untimely, um, unfortunate events of everything that happened because I remembered, uh, the night before there, I'm from New Jersey, so I'm from South Jersey, so, you know, fly Eagle fly in six hours and all that good stuff. Right. And so a lot of, there were a lot of us, a lot of friends, we were watching the Sixers play the Lakers because LeBron was gonna pass Kobe and that was supposed to be such the big news, you know, and then the next day what everyone else is talking about. And so prior to this premature death, there was a making of, Oh, this guy is going to be the top three. He's the third most scoring a player in the NBA, LeBron. And, um, it just was not in his belt for being a hero. Well, LeBron, LeBron certainly is. I'm, you know, uh, and I think it's interesting how athletes are often looked up to as heroes and, uh, and I think legitimately so. And, and you know, I, I think that raises the question of, well, what makes somebody a hero and, and how is it that athletes qualify?  

Speaker 0    03:46    And, um, so, so anyway, that's what my book you, the main question in the book is, well, what makes someone a hero? And I think, I think there were four, you know, you know, Hamza in the 19th century there was a lively debate on, on heroes. It's called the great man theory of history back then. You know, there's a lot of top rate people, I mean, including Frederick Nicha who, you know, who weighed in on this question, but nobody ever defined it. Knowing y'all, they'll be able to find what a hero is. And that's one of the things I tried to do in my book, but I think the most prominent characteristics here are your heroes. I think. Take that and that kind of Epic heroes that I was discussing in my book, I started with people like, you know, Maria Montessori and George Washington Carver and Ernest Shackleton.  

Speaker 0    04:27    And you know, people like that. Um, <inaudible> who, who achieved these grand scale accomplishments. I think one, they take service in, in, uh, they take action in service of human life. You know, they promote a human wellbeing, right? You know that they are heroes, not villains. You know, the, the, uh, promoting life, not destroying it. I think too, they, they, these great heroes have a certain degree of, uh, prowess, you know, of ability, whether this, whether they're smarter than everybody else or they're stronger will or whatever it is. Uh, they haven't had this great level of ability and three, the kind of courage or dauntless Snus that it takes to face severe obstacles and even, you know, even death, uh, you know, to, to, to reach their goals. And I have four, I think heroes, uh, achieve victory at at least a moral sense. You know, they inspire us.  

Speaker 0    05:13    Even if they buy the <inaudible>, the uprightness by their greatness, even if they fail to achieve victory in a, in a practical sense. So I think this is what, you know, makes, uh, people heroes. And I think they're, you know, there've been a lot, a lot of great heroes historically and, and unfortunately, um, we're in an anti Hulu mentality. They, uh, in a culture though, heroes aren't as <inaudible> as, as, as much as they were in the past. And I think the one exception to that is the arena of sports where in sports you allow to be great. I mean, even in sports, I mean, there, there are, the hate is right. The people always say you'll hate it has gotta hate, you know, and stuff like that. But I think it, I think in sports people that allow to be great without as much negative criticism of them as, as they are in, in other areas, which is, which is, which is an interesting phenomenon, you know, if I'm right about that.  

Speaker 0    06:06    Yeah. And, and I, I'm sure we're going to spend a lot of time on sports and I would like to put a pin into it. And the reason why is on Andrew Bernstein. Dot net or you're talking about the hero archetype and we're talking about the arena sports, but outside the sports, um, you know, it's kind of interesting that we can kind of look back and make this assertion. But when you're on your website in the first paragraph, there were a time where Adolf Hitler was considered a hero and so was Joe Stalin or a former bin Ladin so there are people when you said, you know, a degree of prowess, basically severe obstacles, uh, in the, in the, in, in the short term a moral sense. And so, you know, how do you exclude them in the D exclude them from the grand scheme because we know their full picture and what's the danger of also identifying someone like that in current times?  

Speaker 0    07:03    Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point, Hamza, because it's, it's, it's crucially important to identify the right people as heroes. Otherwise, you know, you meant, you know, you pointed out from the introduction to my book, it was falling Osama bin Ladin. Uh, you, you know, these guys are terrible mass murderers. I don't know how many, you know, Hitler and Stalin between them. I don't know how many millions of innocent civilians they were responsible for, for murdering. So I think, you know, if one of the salient characteristics of heroism is action and promotion of human life, that I think we can, and I think I, and I do stand by that. I think that's important. Um, we can definitively exclude mass murderers, you know, from, from the Exelon zero. And it's not even like after the fact, you know, the Nazi's a fight and race war, they claimed, you know, they had a superior race and they have the, they have the moral authority to enslave Angela annihilate the, so called in theory are racist.  

Speaker 0    07:59    So actually preaching, you don't mess Bart over before they even perpetrated communist to find class war. Uh, Osama bin Laden is fighting Holy war. And they all believe that they have, you know, they have the moral authority to, to murder, you know, innocent people. And, um, I think, I think we can definitively exclude them from the category of heroes, but you'll, you'll, uh, based on the sign. And I think we, I think we absolutely need to, uh, and the apps to wreak the kind of havoc they did in real, in real life. They need followers and a lot of followers and you know, and, and people, you know, not blindly probably, but irrationally follow these, these guys. Whereas on the other hand, if you look at like some of the people I mentioned, you know, like, uh, I, I'm a big fan of George Washington Carver and George Washington tool for that man.  

Speaker 0    08:47    But you know, we, we can get to the coffer, I mean, his biographer, Lawrence Elliott, you know, the title of the book is George Washington clobber the man who will became, and it's unbelievable and really inspiring that you read his, his biography, the things he overcame to get the education that he gotten. And then of course at Tuskegee, against two of the, he was able to revolutionize agricultural science. And, and he's a great pioneer in that field. And you know, crop rotation and able to grow more crops, you'll have more food, feed more people. Uh, but we often came to get an education is extraordinary. And uh, and, and in service of positive goals you don't love of agricultural science and some of the, one of the other heroes I discussed and we want to know, we'll see that women, you know, can do these great things to Maria Montessori.  

Speaker 0    09:32    Revolutionalize your child's education. I'm really focused on educating the mind, which is really important in the United States today given the, the, the, sorry, state of our educational system. And she had to deal with fascist regime in Italy and you know, and had, had a leaf, a Homeland and stuff. And these are people who really, you know, took action that advanced human life, childhood education, agricultural science, you know, then not advocating or acting on, on, you know, mass murder. So I think it's really important to, to, to get the right heroes, the people who make human like bet and not the ones who make it worse. Uh, absolutely. And, and the reason why I, I do wanna stay for one second and, uh, pardon me about not knowing that I do know that stolen was a murderer, what have you, but until the time, I'm just thinking from a historical standpoint that there was a time in 1938 where Hitler was named man of the year and Osama is fighting the Russia and that's what made us support him at the time.  

Speaker 0    10:28    So initially, I mean, ultimately they became the, you know, monsters that were talking about that, that Mark on, on history. But that's why I was trying to determine like, how do we have the foresight to see someone that has on the surface has so much potential to go in the right direction, but they don't and become like the total opposite that we're talking about. Like, you know, I, you know, again, it's an interesting point and I think, uh, we, with, with people generally and certainly with powerful political leaders, whether they're, you know, the, the, the ha, you know, the head, the head of state in Germany or Russia or whatever, I think we need to take people at their word. And you know, you know, when Hitler planned, I mean his book, mind comp was published in the 1920s as, as I recall, you know, years before he came to power in 1933.  

Speaker 0    11:21    And, um, you know, he outlined the plan, you know, you know, Ari and racial superiority and world conquest and at very least <inaudible> of the inferior races. I don't know if they, I don't remember if he talked yet about annihilation, but the very least, you know, and enslavement of the so-called inferior races and the Stalin the same, you know, when the Soviet union, the communists may know, you know, they are very open about fighting class welfare and, and wipe it out the only class, you know. So I think we need people. Hitler was a before in a way, you know, so people laughed at him, they didn't take him seriously. And then that's a fatal mistake, you know, w whether somebody you know, has befriend characteristics or not when they, when they're planning world conquest and mass murder, you need to sit up and listen and take notice as some people did.  

Speaker 0    12:09    You know, Churchill was in Raleigh, uh, a person who oppose Hitler and warn the British she of, of, of to take him seriously and is dangerous. I think we need to take people at their word when they tell us, you know, what kind of destruction they intend to, you know, impose on the world. Sure, sure. It's funny that you said, uh, even seen as a buffoon because if we go to current time, there is a leader of the first world and some circles that would have been considered that, but it's seen as the hero on another side. Like, I mean, there's people, I mean, you have definitely a, uh, uh, a character that people are leaning on both ends of the spectrum. And it's okay. How do we determine in the school of history, if we look back, you know, it's 20, 30, 20, 40, 20, 50, and we look back to this time, did we say, Oh, well, all the writing was on the wall.  

Speaker 0    12:59    Is it, and is it easier to do that because of all the technology where it was harder back in like you said, the twenties, 1920s, 1930s. Yeah, I mean in the 1920s and thirties, it wasn't even television and you know, nevermind, you know, international satellite hookups, I mean today it's today it's nothing. You know, the, the Olympics is the 2016 Olympics oil in Rio as I recall, uh, 2012 in London. And you know, I remember, you know, 2008 in Beijing when, uh, uh, was with us. Yeah. When, when Michael Phelps won like 20, you know, gold mails or some ridiculous thing, you know, sitting at home watching the TV in this things that's a, these events are unfolding in Beijing all the way around the world. And it's like nothing. We, I mean, we take it for granted 1920s. I mean, there was no TV at all.  

Speaker 0    13:49    And radio, you know, radio was a relatively new, uh, device. So, you know, it was very hot in the United States, let's say, or even in Britain to, to know what it was was doing or, or saying there's no social media, obviously. No, you know, no personal computers, internet, social media. So yeah, it's much easier today to keep tabs on, you know, you know, on, on people who might be really dangerous. Kim's young wound comes to mind again. Yeah, he's got buffoon characteristics too, but he's also a brutal dictator armed with nuclear weapons. So, you know, uh, he's a dangerous dude and, uh, and, and to see the president, the United States in this case, you know, uh, Donald Trump sorta conducting a bromance with him as it was, was, was kind of disturbing. But he's a dangerous, he's a dangerous guy. And Trump was more accurate when he called them rocking man, you know, pointing out the dangers of this guy that he was when he kind of met with them.  

Speaker 0    14:47    And then, I mean, my jaw hit the floor when the, you know, when president Trump left the meeting and they said the North Korean people love Kim Jong. I mean it's like that's disgraceful. Those, they have legal life slavery in that country. There's thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people forming brutal slave labor, including little kids. And I don't think you know, those people, their family members love Kim Jungleland. It's a disgrace for the leader of the United States to say such a thing. So with that being said, is it easier to make or name or rally behind an athlete because they're on a finite prism, if you will. And we don't really, even though we know more about their personal lives, it's easier to kind of, Oh well that's okay because you can still score touchdowns or throw a pass or slam dunk or you know, score a hit, a home run.  

Speaker 0    15:37    Is it easier to identify with sports, sports men for that reason? You know, that's an interesting point in your mind to me of what the great Charles Barkley who, uh, was not just a great player, but he speaks his mind. There's one thing, you know, whether whether I agree with what Barkley or on a given issue or don't agree with them, he doesn't kiss up to the politically correct establishment. He speaks his mind and you know, and, and I, and I have a lot of respect for him for that. And I remember, I remember him getting in hot water once when he said something like, you know, athletes shouldn't be role models. Parents, you know, should be role models. He said, why should somebody, you know, be a role model? Cause he could talk at basketball. He, you know, he said, I know, you know, drug dealers in school yards who couldn't do that.  

Speaker 0    16:17    You know, that's a good point. Uh, nevertheless, you know, having, having said that, I think the great thing about sports and why so many of us love it is, um, uh, and on the playing field, it's, it's tremendous talent and dedication to a goal. You know how the cotton Colby is a good example. And I, and I sure I, and I hope and I was never like a fan by the way. I mean, I mean to me Michael Jordan is the goat, you know what I mean? He's the, he's the guy logging in more than anybody. But I respect Colby argument. No argument there. But I respect Colby. He's a great play. I certainly hope he was innocent of that rape allegation. You know, the charges would drop. I think only two people, you know, 11 know what actually happens, you know, Colby and the lady involved and of course he, he's gone now.  

Speaker 0    17:08    So I certainly hope he's in a sense of that, but we don't know. Uh, but leaving that aside, holding on a band, you know, on the plane, on the Plainfield doing, you're on the basketball court. It's not just his great town. Like in fact like MJ, I think we can compare them to the goat in this way. He combined the tremendous work ethic with tremendous natural talent and that, you know, that's what made Michael Jordan the greatest of all time. And it's what may, it's what made Colby and all time great we, and so we have tremendous respect for his work ethic and you know, in Aristotle's terms you, he actualize his potential if he's as good as he as great as he could be and then the will to win, you know, the <inaudible>, the overcoming obstacles you play in the best in the world. Those last two titles, you know, will one long after shack was gone, it was Colby was the guy.  

Speaker 0    17:57    He put the team on his back and carried them to the title. And so watching some great person like that who's great at what he does, he's great because of natural talent, but also because of the work ethic play against the best in the world, you know, for an important goal within the sports world. You know, carrying the team on his back to victory. It's enormously inspiring and you know, can inspire us to work as hard. Maybe we don't have Colbys talenting whatever field we're in, but we have some degree of talent. Well, if we had his work ethic and his dedication, you know, to, to perfect themselves. I mean, how far, how high might we go? It's very inspiring. And so that's, that's one of the reasons why I love sports and I'm glad that, uh, sports heroes are, are allowed to be heroes without being hated as much as you know, people who are in other fields.  

Speaker 0    18:44    Oh, absolutely. And I like to put a nice bow, if you will. And that went at his funeral the other day. Michael Jordan spoke on his behalf. Right. So it was, you saw that, um, it was an appreciation and, and if you didn't see it, it was more of a, you know, he was like a little brother to him and, but he emulated him. He mirrored him to such an extent that it was like you had to acknowledge him and like you just said that the tremendous work ethic and also it was kind of, it seemed like that was the picture that was being painted last night as well. As far as if we have a timeline and we have a perfect picture, you know, the, we have what's called passing the Baton. So you have Jordan, you have, uh, you have Coby, and then you have LeBron and then maybe Zion or something like that.  

Speaker 0    19:36    So from like a old school, Howard Cosell moment, this is how it would be. And this is the lineage of heroes that we can follow an inulin. Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's true. And, and, um, anybody who's a basketball fan, I, I think we should, uh, appreciate the MBAs in a golden age right now. There's so much talent in the league. I mean, George just drops at some of these guys, you know, uh, the Greek freak and on different teams still, you know, the Greek freaks, a tremendous talent. Zions tryna Anthony Davis, what, you know what the Lake is? Was that kid from Croatia in Dallas? I forget his name. Oh yeah, yeah. I forget his name, but I know you're talking about go Lucas something. But he's a tremendous offensive player, you know, and it's all over all over the league. There's just this, there's this tremendous amount of a tremendous amount of talent and uh, you know, and, and, and the guys with the sixes, you know, uh, and beads, Jolen bead and, and, and, and Ben Simmons isn't the tremendous amount of talent in the NBA.  

Speaker 0    20:41    This is, this is like the 80s, you know, in, in a way when we had magic, we had bird and we had a MJ, you know, and, and this is, this is, this is great basketball. And if some of these guys, uh, you know, you know, that that took to get to that level, I think, I think this is why we look up to athletes as heroes. Um, we know that to get to that level, you need more than great talent. You need to really work at it as this tremendous work ethic that goes into being, you know, an NBA or from, Oh, by the way, I got, I mentioned one of my all time favorite players is Russell Westbrook. I mean, the dude's that let us just exceed what an hour I go left when the average, a triple double three guys in a row was something insane like that.  

Speaker 0    21:25    He's just a <inaudible> average, a triple double that that one year he was the MVP when he average, you know, uh, 10 assists or more game on a team that couldn't shoot them and how many assists would he have had of the team at any shooters, you know, but, but the work ethic that goes, I mean, Russell Westbrook's an extraordinary athlete, but I mean, you can't do what he does, you know, in NBA hall of fame level Korea without working really, really, really hard at it. And I think that's why, even though, you know, I'm a big Gildan young Yankee fan in baseball. And even though I think a lot of fans, you know, the baseball players make an insane amount of money, uh, but you know, all around professional sports, they make a lot of money. I think this is why a lot of fans, we might be struggling to make a living, but for the most part we don't be grudged them making tens of millions or hundreds of millions dollars a year because we know how much work they put into the, into their craft.  

Speaker 0    22:18    You know how they got to be that, how they got to be that good. And watching them play at that level inspires us to try and be the best we can be. So that's why I think sports heroes, all legitimate heroes to me. Oh absolutely. And I like what you said. I'm going to remember that about NBA B being the golden age. Because when you know there's an, when you get into arguments with your friends and they're like, who's the best, or for basketball is a Kobe as a Jordan. But they would ask Jordan who he thought was the best and he would say dr J. And so it was always like that, passing the Baton to the ones before you. But when you said NBA being the golden age today, 10 years from now, what kind of argument can you have? You can't have if one person, just for all the people you just mentioned.  

Speaker 0    23:04    Yeah, yeah. It's great. Oh, I, you know, and there's 20 others. I mean, Steph Curry, I mean, he's engine that book. I mean, he like revolutionalize the game. I mean, you know, it was very inspiring to watch. I mean, I remember when he was a skinny kid at, uh, at, uh, Davidson and again came into UMass square, gone and you know, in the tournament in, in, in March, March, Madison just shut the lights out and then, you know, and made a name for himself. Uh, you know, he's inspiring because very often, you know, you got 10 guys on the court at one time and he may, he may, he may be one the smallest dude on the court at any given moment, but tool, he was also very often the best player on the court. And so it showed that, you know, I mean, he was six, three, it's not, it's not like he was five, eight, but still relatively small guys can Excel, you know, in the NDA when there is skilled as a Steph Curry.  

Speaker 0    23:55    So you know this and any of his former teammates tarantula was, they called him Kevin Duran. Great, great, great player. That's really sad. He's out for the year. But you know, we'll see if he comes back at 100%. But the goal, I think the, I think, I think you can make a very strong case. The MBA's in the golden age is great talent disperse throughout the league. It's very competitive and LeBron's not ready to have the gay like, like we said before, he's still tremendous play. James Harden's a tremendous player. The league is just loaded with talent. It's great. It's great fun. Uh, absolutely. And you just touched on my favorite time of year and as you were talking about, uh, heroes in, in history, you had the Coliseum where, you know, there will be droves of people to watch. And it was kinda, you know, even the Bible, the David versus Goliath.  

Speaker 0    24:44    And so it reminds me of March madness. You right, you have the Cinderellas that's like, you went to what school you're playing against Duke and North Carolina, whatever. Or they get kicked out on their first round. How much do you see each year a hero being born during March madness? Or do you see like a, do you see any of these, uh, pictures or uh, stories? Uh, we fairy tell stories being generated through college as they progressed the pro ball. Yeah. I mean, I mean it's, it's, that's what makes the tournament so great, you know, and, and, and the postseason in any sport is, is great, you know, because you could dominate the regular season and if you do, chances are you're the best team. You know, like in, in, in, in baseball they say 162 game season doesn't lie. And it's similar. You know, in the NBA you have a 82 game season.  

Speaker 0    25:44    It doesn't line, you know, if you, if you play 30 games in college basketball and you, and you go 29 in one or something, nobody's been undefeated and it walk time. Right. Oh, what Kentucky came into the tournament undefeated about five years ago, didn't they? And they got knocked down with the brow. The unibrow Anthony Davis. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That was the first time somebody came into the tournament undefeated I think in years. And I certainly thought they were going to win the championship. But, but yeah, that's what makes the post season so excited that you know, you could go, you could be 16 and Oh in the regular season like the Patriots were, but you still, you know, the postings is a whole nother season and, and I have no doubt they were better than the attendant six giants. But you know, for one game or short series, you know, uh, the, the, the weaker team can knock you off.  

Speaker 0    26:37    And that's what makes the March madness, you know, that's what lends to the men. That's, you know, you might, you might've gone 30, you know, in the regular season, but it's a whole nother season now. Now the money's on the table now you really, if you come in as the best team with the best record, the pressure's on you and can you do it again to you? That's the Mark of a real champion. Can you win when everybody expects you to win, when all the pressure is on you to win, then you, then you, then you have a, you know, a real champion that's part of the excitement of the postseason in any sports. When you said then, you know, the, we still would happen with the warriors a few years ago. I mean, well, they, they was 73 and nine or something when they got upset by LeBron and Kyrie and there's another great player, you know, uh, Kyries when he, these tremendous offensive player, um, yeah, they got upset.  

Speaker 0    27:24    I, I, you know, that's the much better team. No question. The regular season doesn't lie, but in the post season, so what series, anything can happen. That's, you know, so, so yeah, you've got these Cinderellas they can come out of nowhere and all of a sudden you, you, these, these guys can make a big name for themselves and, and be a hero. It was very exciting to watch the postseason in any sport that you love. Uh, absolutely insensitive. February, I'm gonna play nice because you made the little, uh, acknowledgement to the giant. So it sounds like this and favoritism there, eh, but I appreciate how you were seeing that. How then overcame the, or how they beat the Patriots. And we were kind of, you know, down the road here. Uh, we felt the same way when the Eagles beat the Patriots in the Superbowl. So my question is, when we identify heroes, why does it always seem that big?  

Speaker 0    28:18    We only let them up to a certain level. Like we build them up to tear them down. Like, Oh, you ha you're not better until you beat, you beat the Patriots, or you're not better until you beat Duke or you're not better and TB golden state for many years. Why is that the case? Instead of just relishing the fact that these guys are champions? Yeah, I know there's this, um, and by the way, the, uh, when the Eagles, uh, beat the Patriots, the Patriots didn't come on defeated. That's why I mentioned the, the giants, you know, that time, the, you know, the first, I'm not even a giants fan to tell you the truth, but, uh, the, the Patriots undefeated that first time the giants beat them, that was, that was, you know, huge upset. I certainly fucking page would win, but, uh, yeah. Well, what did they save you to, to, to be the best you, you gotta beat the best.  

Speaker 0    29:10    And I, you know, I think that even in sports, although maybe less so than in business or politics or, but even in sports, there's a, there's, um, this is the, this rotten kind of envy that you know, that a lot of people feel that you can't be too successful, you know, because then, then you, I remember a friend of mine was, uh, going out with a woman and you know, in the 90s she, she was a big Michael Jordan fan. You know, it's, people don't remember today unless they, unless they will, you know, of a certain age. But when MJ came into league in 84, there was seven long years when, you know, before the bulls won a title and everybody, you know, all the pundits, everybody, Oh yo, yeah, he's great. Play a, but he doesn't make the guys around him bed. Uh, you know, he's not gonna win a championship.  

Speaker 0    30:02    He's not Larry Bird. He's not magic Johnson. He can't make the players around him better. And I mean, I mean, MJ was put down all the time and then, and that fueled him. It's role for him. He such a competitive guy. I say she was a big fan of Michael Jordan, you know, maybe even after the first championship in 91 but after the bull started rattling world championships, she stopped ruining fam. And she said explicitly, he wins too much. And I was like, my jaw dropped. I'd be, when I heard this, I mean, I mean, you know how hard that is. I mean, it's hard to win one title, but once you have one, you're the champs. The bullseye is right on your chest or on your back as it should be. You're the champ. Everyone's gonna knock you off. It's much harder to repeat. Never three Pete.  

Speaker 0    30:46    No, Mike do a double three Pete. You know, it's an extraordinary, you know what Mike, Michael Jordan in accomplish with the bulls and even in sports, they're just kinda envy that you can't, you can't get to be too good, otherwise people are gonna they're going to hate on you. You know? And it's, and it's really, it's really sad. We should be, uh, respecting and admiring what it takes to repeat as champions and how, you know, how, recognize how hard that is. And again, being spite. Why envy somebody when we could be inspired by them. You know, we, I mean, we could, we could push ourselves, you know, you don't have Michael Jordan's talent, but what if I had his will and his work ethic, you know, that's chosen. That's not innate. It's not hard wise. That's something we choose. Push ourselves hard, you know, to be the best we can be in whatever we love.  

Speaker 0    31:32    And it sounds like, I mean, what you just said was really important when you talk about Jordan and in those years prior to the championships, right. And a lot of people forget that. And it's really interesting when we watch these, these athletes or others, uh, making their come up or are they, you know, they haven't reached prime time yet. And we root for them because, because of the, we're rooting for the underdog. And then like you said, they get to that to a certain level and then you hate him. And I just remember a couple of weeks ago with Questlove from, you know, he's from the music group, the roots, but he's on the, the, uh, late night show. And, um, he had talked about that magic nut, not magic, but for Philly. It was a magical night when, when Kobe was playing there in the whole stadium Buddha, cause he's from, from Pennsylvania. Right. That was like a sense of pride. Like we booed Coby Eagle Eagles fans boosts Santa Claus at one young one time. Oh yeah. Yeah.  

Speaker 0    32:36    Hey man, it's a rough state. Well, Philadelphia, a tough town, man. There's no doubt about it, you know? Yes, yes, you did say one thing that I do want to spend some time on, uh, because you know, when you're talking about Jordan, uh, before he became a champion, uh, in that era in the eighties, right, you had a player that would potentially stay with one team for most of his career and now you know, that's no longer the case in any of the sports. And when you were saying, well, they get paid a lot of money. I know when people I know or we emulate them when we try to play the over the Hill basketball league and what have you. But we also emulate them and maybe their agents because their agents are the ones that help negotiate those deals. And we're like, well, maybe I can negotiate that or something that I can learn from that and incorporate that in the business world. So are you seeing examples where people, obviously we have, we could probably talk for hours about our love for the sport and acknowledging heroes, but are you seeing me transference and other walks of life from the use of agents? You mean or, or, or just the heroes, like free agency. And what does that mean? And you know, cause for me, I, I know that I have a good relationship with the fire department here because every year except 2017, I always burn my Eagles jerseys cause being upset with him.  

Speaker 0    34:05    But I'm happy when they're able to negotiate a really good deal and it could be a lot of money to us because we're not in that, in that realm. But I can appreciate that from a business standpoint of, wow, this person's really shrewd. Like some of my heroes are in the business world for that reason. Yeah, I know. I think this is a good, a good point on, on, on how we can be inspired. Again, there are, even, even in sports, you know, they're always the haters. I mean, you know, I remember my dad, you soured on, they make too much money. Uh, well, you know. Okay. He was a, you know, he's a teacher, you know, working hard to educate kids. Uh, there was something really important, wasn't making much money, you know, as a teacher. And he was a good teacher, so I can understand, you know, he, he's, he's making 20,000 a year and some baseball players making 20 million.  

Speaker 0    34:56    I can understand you'll be in disgruntled, uh, by that. But still, you know, I'm, I mean, you're right. Some of these, some of these athletes have been very, very shrewd in, in their merchandising, in the kinds of, uh, you know, pitchman and Michael Jordan's like a, you know, a great example. He was, I remember in the 90s he was making vastly more money, you know, as working for Nike and Gatorade and hangs that he was for the bowls. And, uh, you know, I think, I think given we could be, you'll learn from that and be inspired by it. So, so I don't have his talent, his fame, his notoriety to leverage that until the kinds of, you know, corporate deals that he made. But, you know, there's like, there was at one time, athletes just made whatever money, you know, they made playing for their team and they, uh, you know, maybe they made a little bit on the side doing something else.  

Speaker 0    35:53    And then all these other, they found all these other opportunities. Well, why can't I do the same? I mean, I don't have the fame that he has, but you know, what, how can I, how can I do that in my life? That's what I think heroes can do for us if we let them, you know, if we, if we let ourselves be inspired by them. I mean, so I'm a PhD of philosophy. Now, believe me, there's not a lot, there's not as much interest in philosophy. I'm says, there isn't basketball. I can assure you nevertheless, maybe I can leverage that some way, you know, you know, uh, I teach ethics all the time. Business ethics has become a big deal. Maybe I can contact some of the corporations and see if I can, you know, you know, work for them with Lexia, for them, you know, on business ethics and that's, that's what you can make money.  

Speaker 0    36:40    You know, you make 10, $20,000, you know, for a few hours, you know, one morning, you know, so that maybe there may be some ways that I could leverage that in my own life. And I think that's why one of one of several great things that heroes can do for us, but we have to be hero worshipers and hero emulate is not, you know, not an envy written, uh, people who you, who, who just angry, you know, and hateful about other people be more successful than us. Yes. And I don't think he can dunk, I've never seen video of him dunking. But in his recent passing, uh, over the holidays, it was brought to the world's attention that David stern is the big hero of the NBA. Before he was the commissioner, the NBA in the 80s, uh, NBA was kind of like a second or third tier sport.  

Speaker 0    37:32    So when you were identifying what the hero, you know, he added a degree of prowess, right? He faced severe obstacles. They're like basketball players. We can't make any money off of these guys. And like you just said in the nineties until now, you just see how your, uh, he was able to at least lay out the foundation of creating superstars in the NBA. So maybe, you know, he's the man behind the man and, and, and more people should highlight David stern and people like him. Yet people who love basketball and love sports and who love, you know, what's the, the phrase, you know, thinking outside the box, coming up with new ideas and, and, and being creative and, and David stern really helped grow, uh, the NBA and basketball as he did to national sport. And look at the, you know, look at how popular basketball is now, uh, around the world.  

Speaker 0    38:25    And if I remember correctly, David stern has something to do with that, you know, marketing the NBA overseas and it's, the benefit is reciprocal. People overseas benefited enormously from, you know, realize what a great sport this is, playing it, enjoying it, and so on. And, and look at the NBA now with this influx of talent from Guysville guys all over the world. I mean, I look at Don six, that's the dude's name. And he's a tremendous offensive play. I don't know if he's ever going to be a great defensive, but he's, he's a tremendous offensive plan. Where's he from? Croatia, I think. And, and, and so what deed? W w I don't play the Kansas and he was a great player by someplace in Africa in a waste. Where's he from? I believe so, but not specifically. I don't know where Elijah one of course was.  

Speaker 0    39:10    I think it was back in the 90s. I think it was from Nigeria. It's certainly somewhere on the African continent, but you know, there's this influx of tremendous talent into the NDA from, Oh, and then of course the big Chinese do the same. Y'all yelling. Oh yeah. Oh man. Yeah. You know, that's probably a David stern special in a way because I think David stern, I could be wrong on this, but I think he helped promote the NBA and basketball in China. So, you know, there's a, yeah, there's a tremendous, uh, uh, statue here and just having an original thank you. Seeing things that other people haven't seen yet and the potential for basketball to be grown. The NBA and basketball is a sport to be grown into an enormous international, international sport. And now it is. So let me get your take on, since we're talking the international scale in the international scene, and in my opinion, that's why I want to get your opinion and my opinion, the reason why 20, 21 or I believe it's 2021 or 2022, is when college athletes can get paid off of their likeness, where years prior they could not.  

Speaker 0    40:20    I think that the reason why the NCAA had to step up is because some high school athletes were for Gulf were encouraged her for go going to college for that one to two years and playing overseas. They would definitely get paid for that and they would have a better experience before they get into the NBA. So I want to get your take on what we may see as identifying heroes in the future on a global scale. Well, you know, as far as the NCAA aid goes, I mean, I think the, they're anti professional attitude or anti moneymaking attitude is, uh, is antiquated. I, I mean, I want to make money. You know, I, I, I teach classes, I write books, I give lectures, I, I enjoy these processes. I reach out to the kids, I try and educate them as best I can. It's meaningful to me than of itself.  

Speaker 0    41:16    But I want to make money. I mean, I have my payment for my daughter's education. I have to, you know, pay the rent. I have to, you know, make the club payments and stuff. Making money is a good thing. If you work hard and, and, and all these top athletes do, if you work hard, uh, then you're earning your money. And, and you know, the idea that college play is, shouldn't have agents or shouldn't make money or anything. I think it's, um, I think it's wrong. I mean, college, college kids <inaudible> I mean, it's a cliche. A lot of people have worked their way through college. Oh, there's a guy, by the way, uh, who, who, who, you know, came out of real poverty and worked his way through college with Sam Walton, you know, and the guy who will found a warm one. And I think he's, cause he gets a lot of abuse from a lot of, a lot of people.  

Speaker 0    42:03    Uh, but I think the good vastly outweighs the bed, you know, at Walmart. But, uh, you know, people often work their way through college who I will work to pay you at least partial, uh, their, their tuition and room and board. And I, and I think athletes could get paid just like somebody who's, you know, who's driving a truck, you know, uh, you know, working in a restaurant or, or something. So I think the, I think the NCAA is, is wrong on that. I mean, this is capitalism. I am making money's good. And as long as you don't steal it, you know, you work in Honduran in the money. It's a, it's a good thing. So I, um, I'm in favor of, uh, all of this being done above board and getting and doing away with all the corruption that has, you know, long existed in, in NCAA sports, in the, yeah, I think it's B that corruption happens because right there isn't that Avenue.  

Speaker 0    42:51    Yeah. And on the other side of that. And in the nineties I was thinking about, he's a sportscaster now, but they Michigan the five or top five, I forgot what they were called but they played all played the fab five and you know they wore the black socks and all that. And so he was talking all these years later how they were seen as heroes and everyone's dressing in black Fox and baggy pants for the first time. But they didn't see a dime of it, you know. So it's like a, what's the incentive to actually stay at the school versus leaving when if you stayed there for the whole four years, you know, it could be a mutually beneficial relationship with you and the university. Yeah, absolutely. And this one and done policy in a, sorry, you probably hear the sirens in the, in the background. He is.  

Speaker 0    43:44    Is there a hero about the Papa crime out there though? I hope so. I hope nobody's houses burning down. That's the, you were talking about you being on good terms with the fire department before that fire department. But I mean the, the one in done policy is, you know, is it's a shame because great players come out of high school and they know they're only gonna go to college one year and then they're going to go into the MBA. So then, you know, it's great that they go into the NBA and that their stars and that they make a lot of money. That's excellent. Their education, you know, might suffer. Whereas like you were saying, if the, if the great athletes can make money when they were in college, maybe there's less financial incentive to leave college so early and they could get a, a more complete education, which would certainly be a good thing.  

Speaker 0    44:32    Yeah. I was thinking from especially you being an educator, that right, there are so many that lead, they do that one and done. But when you mentioned Jordan or Kobe or some of these others, there's a finite amount of the numbers of people that can play in the NBA. So they do that one and done. And then they're ineligible. And who knows what happened. Maybe they aren't working for Sam Walton afterwards. So w w there's a lot of heroes that we don't know about because it just doesn't seem that they're encouraged to get stay there for years. Yeah. Yeah. They're not getting the education that they could get, which is an education is a good thing. We're human beings. We have a mind. I think it's, you know, the mind is a terrible thing to waste. That's a beautiful and true slogan. Uh, so, so, um, that, that's a said you get on the other side, of course, education is not limited to our schooling.  

Speaker 0    45:26    Right. Was that, that, that famous line attributed to Mark Twain who I think, you know, finished fifth grade I think was as far as high as you went, but he said, I, I never let my schooling interfere with my education. There's other ways to get an education. If somebody does one year, you know, at, uh, North Carolina or whatever, and then goes to the NBA and he's a reader, you know, and he, you know, then he could get, he could certainly get an education that way, you know, just by having an active mind and thinking and reading, you don't need to go to college. I just, I want to as a college professor one and you know, say that your three colleagues Ben and I listen to this podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's right. But yeah, I think the, uh, you know, these, these, these great college players, uh, Oh no, that's what I want to say.  

Speaker 0    46:15    You talked about, um, the heroes, so we never heard of the really, um, I think the really sad, the saddest example I think is, you know, people who wasted potential, you know, when you see this in, uh, in, in, in any different areas. I see it, you know, as a, as a college professor with students who I remember one kid I will mention is that I still remember all these years later, uh, you know, he's super smart. I means IQ mid may have tested off the scale as far as I know, but he was a serious drug abuser. And when I don't want to see anybody kill themselves, you know, I don't talking about, you know, Coke, I'm not talking about, you know, pharmaceuticals. So I don't wanna see anybody kill themselves on drugs, you know, much less somebody with this kind of talent. And I called them on.  

Speaker 0    46:58    I remember he washed off to me, I'll never forget what he said. He said to me, dr Bernstein, he said, drugs off friends, you know, unquote. And I said, no, you know, cocaine is never going to be your friend. Not in any form. It could kill you. You know, so, so the people who, who in one form or another have tremendous potential and they, for one reason or another, they squander it. And since we're talking basketball homes, there's all these city legends, you know, these, these urban legends like Walton and, and w. what was his name? The destroyer. Judge Joe. Joe something. Um, they called them the destroyer. Uh, uh, you know, he was his name. His name will come to me, but he was in the rocket tournament, you know, in the, in New York city. He missed, he was a drug dealer. He missed the first half.  

Speaker 0    47:49    He was playing against a team that had Julius Irving and Charlie Scott on it. And they say in the second half, he came in second year, scored 50 points in the second half and overtime again. Wow. Surely is serving and surely Scott, you know, one NBA hall of Famer one, you know, and, and VA still, uh, Joe Joe the destroyer, Hammond. That was his name. Joe Hamad, if anybody wants to Google it, but you know, but he, the Lake is offered him a deal I think in like circa 1970 for like, I don't know, $50,000. And he turned it down cause he said he'd made more money dealing drugs but, but you know, the drug, the drug kingpin ended up, you know, getting busted, you know, doing time in the joint and the, between his drug use and his incarceration, his, his, his talents were just, uh, traded oil.  

Speaker 0    48:39    And then the great player he could have been is just, you know, satis words in the language. Right? What could have been, and so all these people could have been heroes in any, in any different field. But that's the point about heroes. It's not enough to be talented. So I'm not to be a genius or a super athlete and something you've gotta be willing to work to develop it. And that's, that's what separates, you know, the people who do, from the people who don't. It's all about the will to Excel now or now we're talking overall about heroes and what have you. What happens when, you know, the people that we highlighted, hopefully they don't fall into this category, but there comes a time in every sport, baseball in the early two thousands or boxing in the 50s and 60s you know, your heroes, he come to find out that, you know, they threw the fight or they were shaving points saving.  

Speaker 0    49:34    And so what happens when a hero's name and image and likenesses tarnish? Wow. Well, yet, I mean, baseball is right in the crosshairs right now with the Astros' Astros' yeah, yeah. The cheating scandal. Some great players. I mean, some great players on that team that does a Jose L 2 billion and uh, Alex Bregman and George Springer. These guys really need to cheat to be, you know, great players. I, I mean, I doubt it, but yeah, now they're, now they're the numbers, you know, uh, of today was the American league MVP a few years ago and they were, you know, that's when the VA was 2017 the year they was certified as cheating. Uh, now the whole accomplishment and the championship is all phone into doubt. This people, players and MLB, you know, who want to see the Astros title vacated, want to see off ways, MVP award, you know, taken away.  

Speaker 0    50:29    It's all tainted now, you know, and, and you know, my mom taught my sisters and I will, when, when we were little kids, you know, cheetahs only cheat themselves. And in the end, you know, like Lincoln said, you can't fool all the people all the time. How did they think they were going to get busted? You know, I mean, in the end, in all the Ella steroid guys in baseball too, you know who, who will already hall of fame level, you know, Roger Clemens, Barry bonds know guys like that. Those guys will go to Cooperstown and then just watch vegans, you know, and then they, they possibly threw it all away. Their record is tarnished. You know, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a shame. Uh, and they get vilified in this case. They, they, they deserve it. They earned it. They, they, they cheated, you know, and, and, um, it's sad because, you know, I would say if, if you, you, you're so great as it is, go out there and compete just with your natural talent and, and, and you will win is you don't need to cheat to be great at.  

Speaker 0    51:29    Furthermore, your moral character, for any of us, no matter what our talent level is or what our profession is, our moral character has to be the most precious thing about us is it's more important than winning the world series. When the world, when the world series is great, we're winning. The NBA title is great, but you know, if you have to cheat to do it, I mean is, is like a, you know, having a great sex life is great, but if you have to cheat on your wife to do it, it's not worth it. You know, you're hurting her. The woman you love, you, you're harming your relationship and a boob bull you in the morning and your moral character, which I think is should be our greatest source of pride. <inaudible>  

Speaker 0    52:07    yeah, it's the mirror. If you can't, I always heard if you can't look in the mirror or you can't sleep with yourself at night, then it's not worth it. Exactly. Yeah. That's, yeah, that's, that's that. There's wisdom there. I do want to ask you, because at the top we were talking about Coby and one thing that I think really strikes, at least for me is, are, or two things. One, like he was saying, you don't necessarily have to go to college. You know, he, I mean, even though he was a college ready and very intelligent, he, if he had gone to college, he would never would have been able to play against Jordan. And so that was one of his goals. So that's, I think that was admirable. And then the big picture is he retired a couple of years ago and had a lot of balls juggling, pun intended for all these other, uh, other ventures outside of, outside of basketball.  

Speaker 0    53:00    So what do you say about, like you were saying, if I won the Superbowl, but I won the super bowl in 1983 and I haven't done anything since, how do you keep that hero mystique going? Yeah, that's, that's, um, that's really important because, you know, for the most part, as, as athletes, you know, the career ends at a young age and, and, and, and some of these guys in the rest of their lives that kind of said, you know, it's like the best years of our lives were in our twenties and it's all, it's like, well, downhill after that reminds you, you know, that Bruce Springsteen song, those glory days, you know, when he's talking about, you know, the young, these guys going in high school, this guy was a great pitch. He could throw that old speedball Baya and now he's young. He's, I don't know what he's doing now, but his best years were, you know, as a high school baseball player is said.  

Speaker 0    53:54    Um, and so it's, it's great to see guys like Colby who have a, a second career, you know, after was, and they, they, they say that, uh, you know, Colby was so wrapped up in being a dad with his kids and the other activities that, that he did that he had a very fulfilled life that he, he, you know, and people like Michael Jordan and Derek Jeeva, you know, made all made enough money and they know the game well enough that they could become an owner, you know, and they, and they G they did a good job. I'm, he held off here. We said he was going to hold off on marriage and family until his playing career was over. And after he, after he retired, he got married. I think they, I think they have to, I think they have two kids now. And so, you know, some of these guys have done a well, you know, they've planned out their lives well so that there's, there's a life after the playing career ends.  

Speaker 0    54:44    But it said for the guys who just haven't put the forethought in, you know, what's, what's my life going to be like afterwards? And I normally take, let me, let me mention one name that I probably nobody remembers anymore, but I think he's really good at this um, context. And that was a dude named Mike Reed. You might remember me, some Pennsylvania duty, you know, Penn state. Uh, it goes long back, a long way. 1970s, I think he was all America defensive lineman at Penn state. And then he was a well pro defensive lineman for the Cincinnati Bengals. And he retired when he was like 28 cause he wants to be a composer. He was a pianist and you can even accomplish a Reed is REI diff. Anybody who wants to Google Mike Reed, he'd been a pianist, you know, in a very accomplished one. And he, he left the NFL and all, you know, a lot of money in a hall of fame Korea cause he was a perennial All-Pro as I recall.  

Speaker 0    55:34    And, uh, had a career as a, as a composer as well, a whole bunch of country songs that were big kits. I think he branched out into, into other, uh, in writing a Broadway musical, you know, Broadway shows and opera and stuff. He's had a, he's had a tremendous career. I think he's in his seventies now. So if something like that can be a real, a real role model, it's like, not that you're not, did you want to retire from professional sports at 28, whatever it was, but you, you, you have, uh, other loves in your life that when your career is over, whenever it is you, you can, you kind of move into, uh, other, other areas that you love. Like Koby Bryant was ready, was ready to do that. Derek G to D that Michael Jordan did it, you know, and, and Mike Reed did it, you know, there's, uh, uh, the flood flood that's very heroic, you know, and just live in the moment, you know, we want to enjoy the moment, but we want to plan for the future too.  

Speaker 0    56:27    You know, and some of these guys don't do it their career over in the and and, and that's like the high point of the life and then they, they the is over 35 it wasn't, you know, when they go for the next 40 or 50 years then it's not, they don't find anything that's meaningful. You know, I said, so your help, you're helping me redefine definitions and maybe you could clarify for me, but it sounds like we're making a distinction between heroes and legends and it seems like the, the ladder with the Jeter Jordan, uh, read or co or Bryant would fall into the legend status. And I think that's where I was going from at the beginning of the podcast where I was talking to him about some infamous people, what they started out where they could have been heroes, but ultimately they'd never made heroes and they definitely didn't make legendary status.  

Speaker 0    57:17    Whereas some of these others, it seems like a week of refine it. Is there a difference between a hero and a legend? Well, let me again, that's, that's a, that's a good question. I mean to like to like to come a legend. I remember they used to call birthdays to call him Larry legend. Uh, yes. And you know, those, those are great battles stuck in the 80s with the Lakers and the Celtics. That was good stuff. But, um, yeah. T T, T T I think to reach legend status, it's to me, it's almost like, it's almost like you, you go beyond, you go beyond heroism. It's you, you, you, you become a hero. Even other heroes. You like a man amongst men, you're a hero amongst heroes. It's like you're in the upper echelon, you know, and it's like you're not, you're not just in the hall of fame.  

Speaker 0    58:06    There's a lot of guys in the baseball hall of fame, but you are, you know, you are babe Ruth or you'll Lou Gehrig or you'll Willie Mays, you know, you'll like the, you will like the upper, the upper elite. So I, I, you know, I think it's a, to me, a guy who's a legend to a should be a legend would be Jackie Robinson because this is not just what he accomplished as a baseball player, which was like his third or fourth best sport, by the way. I know he's a legitimate hall offense, but what do you owe that came like God real persecution? I mean, guys, deliberately, you're hitting him in the head, you know, with a 95 mile an hour fastball and you could kill somebody throwing a hardball, you know, I mean, and, and, and he overcame all of that and it's that, you know, he's, uh, he's, he's a legend, I think, and you know, and deservedly so.  

Speaker 0    58:52    Uh, absolutely. And I guess we'd be remiss if we didn't include, uh, mr Ali in that. So I think I would put him into that legendary stat. Muhammad Ali. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I mean, he's, he's, he's not just probably the greatest. I just always debatable who's the greatest boxer you'll pound for pound the greatest heavyweight of all time. Maybe the greatest boxer of all time. Pound for pound. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's that, but also all the, uh, you know, all the other things in, in his life, the, the conscientious objection status being stripped of his title, you know, and then coming back from that with those great fights against Joe Frazier and the great fights against George Foreman, uh, the rope, the rope fight in Zaire where I'd been forming that was a great fight. A lot of very patriotic American. I had a lot of respect for George Foreman, but he had, Ali had had George Foreman talking about food.  

Speaker 0    59:46    Do you know, after that fight, you know, and he couldn't even, I mean, it was just, it was just a brilliant ring general ship on the part of Ali with that rope, a dope strategy. Cause George foreman's just seemed absolutely invincible and the hell. Yeah. Yeah. Muhammad Ali is definitely legend. Well, <inaudible> for our audience, you know, they're, they're a little older and I'm sure they were just grooving along with us. And for the younger, they're probably like, well, what about the new guys? What about the fight over this weekend with Tyson fury? And Deontay Wilder. Do these guys, is it still too early to call these guys heroes? Can they, do they have what it takes to make legendary status? What do you think? Uh, of the, these new guys that are out there, you know, where they sit to see adversity, you know, he was come up in the face of adversity.  

Speaker 0    00:35    I mean, Winston Churchill was, was like a loser, you know, prior to world war two. And then, you know, Hitler comes to power and he's, you know, and he's, and he's voted, uh, Churchill's voted into prime minister. He comes into his own, you know, in the cold spring of world war II tool. So Dante Wilder has adversity now, you know, and he's just be, he's, this is his hot hitting guy. I thought he was gonna knock fury out, you know, that right hand to his is just buying the way. But you know, he got out, boxed out, fought lost by TKO. Now he's got adversity and now we got a chance to see what wild is made out of internally. We know we can hit, there's no question about that. Now, can he, can he, can he come back? Uh, can he come back? And maybe even, you know, we'd define this game, Kenny Kenny, cause he's, he's like a, he's a, he's a right hand knockout artist.  

Speaker 0    01:20    Can he expand his game? You know, and uh, but Tyson fury, he's an interesting guy, you know, because he was, he like six, nine, about 270 pounds. He can box, you know, yo, you know, uh, I don't want to sound like a racist here, but you know, big white guys like that, that usually, you know, they're kind of slow and ponderous and everything. And Tyson series got some game. I mean, he's, he, he's geeking box and he's already overcome pump stuff, but he didn't, he didn't, he didn't overcome alcoholism and depression. And he's a character toys. He's good. I think he's good for the game, for boxing. I mean, you know, he's singing, you know, he's singing and he's not a bad singer. He sing in, you know, in the ring after the fight. And he's just goofy, you know, he's colorful. He's a colorful, goofy guys.  

Speaker 0    02:10    The gypsy King. And I think we'll see what the theory sustain it. You know, he's 31, he's on the cost. Right. And I mean, can he sustain it? Can he, can he have three, four more years of, of, you know, consistent tile defenses and B, a, a, B, a champ for three, four or five years. Then I think if he, if he does, you know, we don't just have complete turnover, you know, as heavyweight champ. And I think fury, you know, achieves heroic status because it's taught enough to become the chair, but to stay the channel, everybody's gunning for you as it should be. They shouldn't be your pimples lying on your, on your chest and your back. You should. And then you have to overcome that, you know? And uh, he's an interesting guy. I hope he does well because he's just, he's good for the game.  

Speaker 0    02:53    He's just a breath of fresh air. He's just a colorful, goofy dude, you know, the gypsy King and he's, he's a very eccentric and yeah, I, I, and he's, uh, he's got some skills. He's not just a big, he's not just a big lumbering dude, you know? Right, right. So, I mean, it seems like we, I mean, we've covered the gamut as far as here as I think I have a better understanding. I think I have a better understanding of legends as well. And it's fitting because your book is heroes, legends, champions. Why heroism matters. So where could people pick that up? Where could they, uh, get more information about you websites, social media and all that good stuff. Thanks Tom. So we'll do the heroes, legends, champions. Why heroin was in that is, I mean, best place to get is Amazon and Amazon sells old books, which is a great thing about Amazon.  

Speaker 0    03:40    Why? I think Jeff Bezos is a hero. You know, whatever med things he does, he's, he his, I think the good vastly outweighs the bed. But heroes, legends, champion, get it from Amazon. My website is, you know, Andrew Bernstein. Dot net. You know, a N, D R E w, B E R N S T, E, I N. dot net. And of course, you know, uh, Facebook if they want. Uh, I think, I think I have 5,000 personal on my personal account, but my business, um, you know, my business page and I do a lot of, I have a Facebook live show, you know, for the, for the Brooklyn kids, you know, and I, you know, and I talk about heroism and I talk about the educational system and stuff so they can like my a business page on, on, on Facebook and, and, and I'm a twin into the Brooklyn kid off Facebook live. So, yeah, my, my website is Andrew Bernstein. Dot net. You'll get heroes, legends, champion, some Amazon, and, uh, and that'd be great. Phenomenal man. Well, you've just been attuned to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homeys perspective. This is Hamza and dr. EDW Bernstein. It was a pleasure speaking with you, man. Let's stay in touch. Same, same year, Hamza, you know, this, this was fun. So if you want to do it again, I'm certainly up for it. Absolutely, man. Take care. You too. You too. Bye. Yes.  
Speaker 0    05:13    
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