How Long Does Ayahuasca Last? Iowaska Side Effects? (Interview)

Video Transcript

good afternoon everybody today is Wednesday August 23rd 2017 and this is the intrinsic motivation from a homies perspective this is Hamza and I’m David and today we have a special guest on we have Karen Miller and really excited to talk about Karen I talked to Karen on our podcast just a little back story we met at a party like event here in Atlanta and I thought that she lived here in Atlanta and when I went to the next policy League meeting she wasn’t there come to find out that she didn’t live in Atlanta she lived in Wisconsin which I’m sure she’ll tell us about in her background but she was a good friend of Sheree who actually wants the popular group here in Atlanta and sherry and I were talking about you know different things channeling and so on and so forth and I had mentioned a trip that that David and I and actually we’ll probably looking at between 10 to 12 people potentially to go to Peru for ayahuasca latrine sharing those oh my goodness you really need to speak to Karen because Karen’s been multiple times and she can kind of lead you in the right direction if Karen and I talked briefly about it and just the little conversation that we had I thought it would be great for our audience to hear more about it so without further ado like to welcome Karen Miller welcome to the show Karen thank you I’m happy to be here yes so so before going straight into the ayahuasca retreat because you didn’t just wake up and then the slides are going to take a ayahuasca retreat could you give us a little bit of your background and what led you to going on your initial trip down the peru well I I’ve always been I’ve always been sensitive to the things that resonated for me just even just hearing like a phrase or a spiritual teaching if it if it strikes an inner chord even as a child like I wouldn’t know that and just really keep thinking about that phrase over and over again and there was a Unitarian Church in the neighborhood where I grew up in Indiana and they always had a marquee outside and they’d put a new phrase up you know would be something from Thoreau or or from an Eastern philosopher and I would I would read it and I think about it over and over again and I think that there was just something in my soul that’s always been trying to connect back to source and when I first heard about ayahuasca it was on a radio interview it was late night radio and I was picking up one of my kids from something at midnight and the radio was on and graham hancock talking about ayahuasca in Peru and I just thought I’m going to do that I want to do that that’s for me definitely that’s definitely and but it was so it was so you know not inside my regular life as you know living in Houston Texas and I was a attorney at the time and had three children but I just had that like kind of in my I was kind of just put it like where I would say now in my vortex like something one day I definitely was going to do and then this was a that I went ten years ago it was in 2007 and this was probably two years before that before I ended up going okay and that was the first time in and 2000 2009 well but like 2005 I heard of okay and then people also said anyway and that was the first time yes yeah okay so when you were living were you living did it feel like you were living a double life like you were living the I guess status quo you know wife family children going to church on Sunday but you had something else that was drawing you in in another direction did it feel that way well it was just um it was so outside of my life that I really liked it was just like oh I want to do that but I really didn’t see any way to connect the dots or – it wasn’t like I was actively trying to do it it was just went in my went in my vortex like it went in my vortex of creation like my all of a sudden it was on the menu of what I could have it went from something I didn’t even know about to something hey I could do that because grandpa Hancock he I don’t know if you’re familiar with him he’s a journalist a British journalist he sounded normal and he was taught he had he had gone and he had taken his children who were in their 20s and I just thought wow that sounds amazing I mean a way to have it’s a visionary medicine that’s plant-based that you do under the care of shamans who are trained and something that has been done in the Amazon for thousands of years yeah and you release its visionary so it’s not a hallucinogen as much as you see a vision of what’s already there but that in our ordinary waking state we don’t have access to but with the plant medicine now we have access to see these other other realms and I just thought well that’s for me I want that and then I held this healing it’s a plant that is also a teaching medicine and a healing medicine and has all these benefits and I thought well no doubts I mean to me I didn’t see there was a downside I just sounded like who wouldn’t want to do that yeah the trauma treated you before that first trip what’s that I said how much research did you do before that first trip not not really that much I um it kind of just went I don’t even know I think I told my husband about it like who I want to do this he was like okay whatever show you’re crazy and then but this is I think this is the miraculous part of it is that it just kind of went okay so it all of a sudden now it’s on my menu of something I’d like to do one day and I don’t have any big plan I’m not trying to make it happen but like a year and a half later my husband gets it in his idea he really wants to go to Peru to go to Monte Pichu so he plans a trip like you take the whole family and go to Machu Picchu and do so and do the track and then I just like all of a sudden I’m like wait a minute I could go do that ayahuasca thing I want to do yeah and it was like all of a sudden it was like oh I’m going to be in Peru anyway I want to go do that ayahuasca thing and it would anyway so that’s how my that’s how I ended up going the first time it was really kind of like I would say the universe set it up for me to go because it really wasn’t even in my world to be like so bold as to just research it and go and take a trip to Peru by myself yeah so so then you had you in his in your family you went head in your family you guys went down to Peru but you’re the only one that when did the Hiawatha yeah so what ended up happening was I went a couple weeks early entered blue to Iquitos which is in the jungle in the northern part of Peru and I went to ayahuasca camp out in the middle of the jungle so there’s a little city called Iquitos and you can only access it through plane or by boat it’s on attribute a tributary of the Amazon and it’s kind of a place sometimes people go when they’re going to take a Amazon cruise so it’s just little this funky little town in really in the middle of the jungle a jungle town and then we met like the people came from all over the world to go out to this jungle camp I think there were like a maximum of 25 guests and we took a bus like out into the jungle and stayed in little huts and they provided everything you know we just stayed there for I think was eight or nine days and had five ayahuasca ceremonies during that time what was it caught Atari is that the place you stayed at but the one I the one I went to is called Blue Morpho okay and Hamilton souther is the is the shaman there earlier in American and he was fantastic he was just awesome sharing the results yeah and there was also you know a shaman who is local who’s who’s there for every ceremony who he was Hamilton’s teacher okay and so for I know you’ve done right now we’re just talking about the first trip and I know you’ve done you know you went like what five times total so far right I did I’ve done five tours so okay well I knew what not go to school did you go to the same place all five times okay the same place yeah okay and and I would recommend it I mean that was the only place that I have experience with but I felt really taken care of there and I think they they do a great job taking care of their guests and and its quality you know it’s really the shamans are really good so once you were there how long before you had the first session or first of ayahuasca I think that they well and they may have changed it up with it but the first night is kind of an orientation and then the second day that you’re there you actually make the ayahuasca okay so the guests participate in in the whole process because it takes like a whole bunch it actually takes a lot of hours to make it you the ayahuasca is a vine and the vine you have has to be like pounded with hammers to make it like you would think about a six vine to make it more stringy and then that goes into a giant pot like there’s learn or they had maybe five giant pot cooking over an open fire so that goes into the pot and the leaves of the Shakuni tree or bush go into the pot and then a whole bunch of other barks that are have barks of different trees that have the spirit so different types of spirits go into the the pot and it’s filled with water and then it quote boiled and boiled and boiled and boiled and then cooled and strained and then you end up with this really thick drink it tastes terrible and it and it’s funny because the first time I drank it I thought okay not so bad I could you know I got it down but then the second ceremony I was just like uh just the thought of it is you’ve got the taste just got worse and worse every day so the first share my humble how much do you drink um really not that much maybe uh they serve it in these little cups and a quarter cup was plenty for me but I only weigh about 110 pounds so that was plenty so I guess that would be like I don’t know like yeah like four tablespoons maybe oh yes dr. punch yeah yeah and the tablespoon the more you the more it’s in your system so it’s the more it’s in your body and it always stays with you because what you’re doing is you’re inviting the spirit of ayahuasca to be inside of you and to dominate the spirits that are you don’t need anymore or detrimental that you’ve picked up along the trail and cast them out is what the ayahuasca does so so that spirit of ayahuasca which is a really positive life-affirming spirit states inside of you forever and so when you take it the second ceremony it’s already in you and you don’t need as much so unlike some things like drugs that you might need more of the next time with ayahuasca you actually need very little make it less and less and less yeah interesting interesting okay so now you’re at the first ceremony you you you drank your you know your first bit of ayahuasca how long before it starts taking effect and or just what was it what go ahead and talk about the experience what was it like well it’s um it’s like being on an airplane with a lot of turbulence how that feels like that doesn’t feel good yes really it feels really some scary even though you know that you’re safe and you’re not going you’re probably not going to crash you know like we’re on a plane you’re just like you just have to kind of get through the turbulence and there’s no way through it I mean except to go through it and that’s what it’s like with the ayahuasca like I experienced a lot of turbulence especially the first five ceremonies I was in I had lots of turbulence I felt very nauseous there’s it’s typical to purge which is oh when the ayahuasca is dominating the spirits that are in you that are detrimental we’re no longer serving you you throw up that’s how it purges it out of you it used typically comes like throwing up so I didn’t have a lot of throwing out but I just had a lot of nausea and feeling really terrible like just like I are not what to compare it to except maybe like when you you’re sick with the flu and you just feel horrible like your whole body doesn’t feel good and you and you you want to throw up but you’re not throwing up and that’s that’s almost worse then that’s a lot worse than throwing the throw up is worse than throwing up so so it’s really it’s really something because that the at the same time the shamans are singing they start singing at carros which are the traditional song and those songs are energetic with so the songs and the music which is just so simple it’s just using the leaves dried leaves and sometimes they go into whistling also but they’re singing and that brings up the energy of the ayahuasca so they’re kind of the shamans are managing the whole room and kind of the group experience through this singing and true bringing up the energy so they start singing and then it’s like the energy starts building and building and building and what I experienced was it was like climbing up I mean had my vision was climbing up like stairs like being led up it almost like in a temple like like just climbing stairs like climbing energetically and then I got to the place where I was throwing up and and then that just felt like I don’t like if you could imagine just throwing up life time just like letting go of lifetime’s of of everything you know all the beliefs all the identities that we’ve carried that I’ve carried and just really you know just letting it all go but I had the sense that I was really being supported by angelic beings like they knew that this was going to happen and this was I had suggest to it and so it was they were there for me for the process and so then we’re like new children’s what’s that was I like your girlfriend in college they held her hair yeah knowing that I was pathetic but I wasn’t going to make it you know like you know that kind of like yeah like a girlfriend holding your hair being like it’s okay it’s okay I got your back I got your hair yeah so um and then after that and and and I will add the whole room is throwing up so you hit slike this Orchestra of more I’m sure it’s quite comical like if you’re if you’re if you’re not participating ayahuasca is probably quite comical but so then there’s this whole round of everyone is purging and then then you break through the or at least my experience was breaking through the turbulence and then it was actually that’s where that’s what the you know that’s why you come is for that when you break through and it was quite for me quite visual and I really I learned I mean and it was quite informative like it was really teaching me things not like when you go to a sit in a workshop and you hear things and you’re like yeah yeah yeah I know that it resonates but more at such an experiential level that it was like wow like I got it I got it you know and you still are afraid you’re going to lose it because like that’s what happens to you like you get it and then you lose it and then you get it and then you lose it then you get it and then eventually it sticks but but I it was for me really just I feel like I was called to do it like my soul wanted to do it it was just part of my path and I did learn so much I mean I just had all kinds of like specific downloads that I got that I don’t know that I I don’t know that I would have gotten other ways maybe I would have but this was the way my my soul chose to learn some mmm back up for a second when we’re talking about expect for expectations right so it’s my understanding that you have to adhere to some type of strict diet tend eight 10 to to 10 days to two weeks before you actually go right and then the other thing that since you’ve gone multiple times it makes me think of like freshman year of college you bring so much stuff like your whole life and then when you go back second year you have like a suitcase so that’s it so could you talk about your expectation as far as preparing to go and then what’s it like does it get easier as you done the multiple trips and what’s that what’s that been like um yeah I think the anxiety level goes way down like there at first there’s a lot there’s just anxiety because you’re a newbie and you don’t know what’s going to happen and it’s just kind of scary and after from my experience was I cleared so much that first tour the first five times that when I came back was maybe six months later or four months later it was completely completely different like I didn’t it wasn’t nearly as turbulent and and I felt like there was something like specifically I had to experience the first time in one of the ceremonies of being on the edge of this it was like a vortex like a like a funnel but then like a funnel and then there was a narrow place and then it got wide at the bottom like two funnels put together and the energy was just moving through it moving like up and down and through it and like it was completely like flowing and circulating between these two the funnel these connected funnels but yet I was on the outside of it and it was like I just felt like I was almost there and there was a certain pitch to it and I talked to the shaman about it when I came back like I really came back because I felt like that part was incomplete for me and he said and I said if we could just slow the funnel down and he said no Karen we can’t slow it down but we can but you can speed yourself up and I was like oh yeah I need to speed up my vibration I get it you know it’s like and that’s what I’m here to do and it was like I mean this image of the funnel I’ve really have been like interested in and researching it and like sometimes you see it sometimes I’ve seen it other places like as a spiritual symbol or metaphor and I think what I was showing me was because the message I got was well I was calling it it’s a happy popsicle ride and it was like this it’s like this is why we’re all here for this happy popsicle right and I had the sense that everyone in the room was having my experience which of course it is right but it was like this is what I’m here for in this life to have this connected flow of energy which you could call it now or maybe I would call it now being in the vortex or because that’s what I had the sense of like somehow I’m seeing the vortex but I’m not in it I’m on the outside of it the outside of it is bumpy but when you’re at the at the inside when you’re inside when you’re at the center of the tornado is calm you know when your head at your own Center coming from your heart center it’s not a bumpy ride it’s quite peaceful and still and it may also be you know symbolic of being like having the fully aligned chakras and having your light body illuminated and what’s possible in life like being in a human body and still being fully connected to source and to source energy and being turned on like and flowing and in that flow in that vortex flow so so that was huge for me it was just like this huge like yeah I want that and I see that that I’m not there but it’s right there for me and I’m so closed so so when I came back I kind of came back knowing that I was going to that I would that it would be stepping into it and and yeah I came back it was just totally different so much easier the second time I mean it’s just like I think like whenever we do things in life like the first year or the job is so hard and then there’s a learning curve and then you’re like know what to expect and know what parts you can relax – and so yeah it was really it was really it just gets better but it’s that’s not to say I want to keep doing it you know it’s it’s still really hard work it’s like it’s better but it’s still really hard work every time you go it’s every ceremony is you don’t know what to expect so just to go back real quick that first time so you drank it how long does the I don’t know how to experience lasts before you feel you know you come down or however you want to phrase it yeah the the shamans are managing that and they probably one of the most pleasant part to the ceremony is when they bring the energy down and people are one-by-one kind of coming to and coming out of the ayahuasca and kind of there’s a bit of it still pitch-black the ceremony is done in the pitch-black because you can see the visions better when it’s super dark oh and you’re out in the jungle there was no there was add there was no electricity or hot water at the camp for nine days yeah so the showers were cold and you needed lots of showers because it was that was that actually helped like kind of bring the ayahuasca down like the next day when you’re just still kind of reeling it’s like to take a shower and have that cold water on the top of your head right on your crown was really helpful but yeah so it was really cold I mean if the showers were and so you’re in the pitch-black and there so I would say about three hours like a ceremony typically is about three hours I felt the Iowa effects of the ayahuasca within just maybe 10 minutes but I think I’m kind of I think my nervous system is probably sensitive but and and then there are people who go for a second dose like they don’t they take half a cup and they don’t feel anything or don’t feel much or don’t you have the effect so that’s possible – have you ever done and have you ever done the edibles at all like mushrooms not mushrooms but like like that we brownie or something like that yeah yeah because it sounds a lot of like that if you could kind of talk to that because what you just said I’m just thinking of myself or David or you know with other people when you first take that brownie you take a first bite of this didn’t do anything like other people around you may feel it you’re like I’m going to eat five brownies and then you weren’t having a parable there’s usually a place like maybe half an hour 45 minutes after everyone’s been served where they kind of announce if you if you would like to have more you can come up and have more so people do I mean sometimes so but yeah I mean it I think because there is that special diet I mean you mention that briefly though so before there are certain foods that don’t go well with ayahuasca like sugar and they don’t want it’s better not to have like afterwards you don’t use any drugs or alcohol for 30 days and pork you don’t at least as my camp no pork for I think it was a month or six months again remember but I just stepped after that to stop eating pork anyway but the they’re just foods that don’t do well with ayahuasca and while you’re at the camp’s the diets quite restricted restricted like we really I don’t think we had any fruit at all we had vegetables and very plain food goes chicken and eggs but a lot of rice and fish but it was pretty pretty plain so wasn’t bad I thought the food was fine good and then there’s also at Brut at Blue Morpho they also give you the option to do an even more restricted diet which they called the daya and that was a diet very very restricted diet I think we had eggs did and like hard-boiled eggs white rice fish and I don’t know what I mean it was so but every day the same thing and the purpose of that restriction was to be able to participate in drinking a tea every day especially doing an extra ceremony with the shaman where you drink tea that has been made out of the bark of trees and from like you think about the cosmology of the Indians in Peru or those natives is that everything has spirits so when you drink a bark with that’s been soaked in tree bark you’re actually ingesting tree spirits and I wanted to do that because I love trees so I was like oh I want to do that and so the last two tours that went on I did the daya and got to participate with the tree spirits because I just I thought well that would be neat you know I mean that would be kind of a way to get closer to trees that I already love and also you know just even take the take it a little bit deeper but you can do that right off the bat you know a lot of people do they do the daya and the drinking the tea the tea from the trees yeah how long between the first time you know on that first chip then the first time you drank it before the next session was I could get away at Blue Morpho it was like I think we did I kept trying to remember how it was divided but I think they did like three ceremonies like like the first night was in truth was like a orientation and then a ceremony a ceremony a ceremony three nights in a row and then we had a day off and then we did the last two ceremonies oh yes yeah and then it was and then we then I think we went home so it was like eight or nine days yeah but the they told us this is going to seem like the longest week of your life and it did it would it five ceremony sounds like that’s not that much it is so much I watch oh yeah you’re just like ah like when that day comes that you have a great day you so need it you’re just like on all we do all day is lay around I mean to be bored of laying around you can read you can there’s like you can there’s hammocks to like chill out in and rocking chairs and there was a little like to go you know soak in but it was like it’s just like you’re just exhausted and tired and then that there would be those last two days you’d be like oh we’re all thank God go away on just you know a vacation but you feel like you’ve been gone a year you know it’s just like it just seems like such a long time so but it was really okay I’m gonna say was there ever a point on the the first year first trip where you were saying to yourself what did I get myself into um I was Tommy tries it I not I mean I really a 100% wanted to be there I mean like really I was really a hundred percent clear that I wanted to be there and that this was something that was that was beneficial to me so I didn’t I there were I know that that does happen to people sometimes were they really second-guess themselves and want to split but then I can look in the new that first step you said it was about 25 and that first time you went at in the end they say alright that’s it I’m out of here this isn’t for me ah no no nobody I don’t think ever when I was there did anyone ever I it was I mean I in that first time there was a woman who told me afterwards that she didn’t she didn’t drink the ayahuasca for one ceremony she just felt like like maybe it was the fourth ceremony she was just like I just needed a break and Hamilton the shaman said well you know why don’t you come to ceremony but don’t drink so that is always that’s always an option or and the other thing that I think is really good advice or helpful is you don’t need to drink very much like you could just have because you when you go up to the shamans they ask you how much ayahuasca you want and you can you can you know tell them you only want a quarter cup or even less than a quarter cup just a little bit and ideally I think this is ideal is you only want enough to get you where you’re seeing the visions and you’re in the experience because you could be sitting you could be sitting in the ceremony with no ayahuasca and that that would be okay that’s one way to do it or you could sit in the ceremony and just have had enough like one tablespoon which maybe for you enough that you’re still are seeing visions and that would be perfect I mean there’s no reason to take so much that you’re miserable yeah yeah and what one of the ceremonies but when the last times I went they put me in the shower for I was in the shower it gets for an hour because yeah I mean so that’s one of the ways they take care of the guests when the guests when if a guest is really spinning out like really it I don’t think I was having I think I was like making I was just vocalizing a lot which people do that you know it’s not it was like almost like taught like making noise oh well I will say this like the very first ceremony or the second ceremony in that first time I started to say it’s a movie it’s a movie and it felt so good to say it that it was like I just couldn’t stop saying it because but I mean so that sounds crazy but that was my experience and my experience was definitely like the medicine was showing me that this life experience that we’re having is a movie like not just a metaphor I mean a lot of times there is the metaphor that we’re an actor in our own movies and we’re writing our own scripts and we’re creating a movie but it was like it really was a movie it was like absolutely goes what each of us is seen through our own little eyes is like a movie that will rewatch later over and over again and would you release oh go ahead I was going to ask when you came finally got back to the States what did you notice in the ensuing days and weeks or and or months after did you notice as part of your body was you know your body and spirit integrating all that what did you notice if anything um I I really um I think it really did profoundly make a difference in my life in terms of how happy I was like I started being I think more present to my life and last future-oriented and you know I still like to plan I still like to I still am a bit future oriented but I really started getting happy with life like I stopped I would just say be I think I used to really fight life and now I don’t do that as much and as a result I just felt a lot more free to be myself I don’t know like I was really I felt like less constrained by who I’d been in the past or my social roles and I mean I like right now talking about ayahuasca I always like when I first got back I loved talking about it and you know because it was like one of the most profound things I’ve done in my life like really made such a huge impact on me and taught me so much and so that was I just got happier I just got like I was just more myself and the more we are ourselves and we’re the freer we are from our past it’s just like we can just be present to whatever life presents and just be with that and so I would say just charity really give him happy so unless frustrated like before I would get frustrated with people and I want them to see it my way and do it my way and I wonder why they would would weren’t cooperating yeah I don’t know it’s just like that’s not such a problem for me anymore yeah congratulations yeah and not to say it is totally gone but it’s that was a shift for me so I imagine he asked you hold on before you go back to the states I want to still stay in Peru for a little while so because it seems so magical right and you know this is before our trip so we’re looking at going in at the beginning of January early February at the latest and offline we were talking you and I were talking about the you know a lot of people want to go to do the retreat and then they want to go to Machu Picchu you’ve done both instances where you didn’t do the retreat you did do the retreat MSRP to secondly or you did much with you first and then did the retreat like what are your what are your different scenarios is experiences doing trying to do both as Americans we try to cut you know try to have a package deal and I wanted to get your opinion on that um I might just say just give yourself a rest day in between like if you’re like yeah as Americans we try to like yeah you’re gonna do five ayahuasca ceremonies and fly to the mountains and hike for four days is I mean like that’s a lot on your body so I would say give yourself a rest day like when you get into I would I mean if you want to do it do it but when you get to Cusco in the mountains that would be a good day to just acclimate to that high altitude and not try to I don’t hit the ground running is what I’m saying yeah if you if you can if you can work in a day off there’s it’s a wonderful city just to explore and when I went the first time I went I met my family and we were in Lima for a day and then a night and then we went to Cusco and we were all going to do this hike and my husband he was my former husband my then husband he got head incredible altitude sickness and God I mean you got he like crashed on the sidewalk and then he couldn’t do the height because he was he was he was so sick from the altitude so that’s something to be that you’re putting your body through a lot anytime you fly into 8,000 feet and they’re going to climb higher so just take it you know if you can take a day to just relax and and then maybe the next day you know do one of the tours around the Sacred Valley which is fantastic before you start the hike a lot but you’ll all be together so you’ll have a support system so that won’t be so bad but what I have with a lot of hammers what’s that I’m just thinking I’m just I’m curious I know I play a lot of different roles like there’s a spirit Johanna there’s business Hamza there’s social Hamza and I was just wondering if you had context switch where you had this phenomenal life-changing event for the retreat and then you went back to mama mom and wife mode with the family like how easy was it for you to make that transition um well you know I felt like I mean I was stepping back into like yeah being with my family but I just felt like I had left behind so much baggage so I was there like more like who I really am and I was so happy to see my family like I was just I just felt so much love I really connected with that through the ayahuasca with all I am as loved so it was like a huge tree to be with these people I really loved after doing the ayahuasca I was so happy to be with them it was awesome and I loved that back into the mom wall like I mean even now I mean my kids are grown but it’s like every whenever I’m I get to be mom again it’s awesome I don’t want to do it every day but it’s awesome to get to be mom I mean it’s really it’s really fun so but I did get like I got a lot of clarity about my life and how I was living my life and what what I really what was really important to me I got a lot of clarity doing doing the ceremonies so it was the beginning of a lot of changes so that’s one thing it’s it’s a positive but it’s also like you can’t imagine how it’s going to change you like for the better but still yeah Ange isn’t always easy so no the ensuing shifts after the first one did you just each time go by yourself or did your husband say hey I’m gonna try the order you know any family member or even friends did anyone say I want to go with you or did you go by yourself every time I went by myself every time I would have loved to have my husband go with me he was not that was that was something he was just not at all interested in doing yeah okay and then I told a lot of people about it but mostly people except for everybody I had family members with them and like who had gone themselves and then they come back with their spouse and I thought that was really cool I mean because it is such a peak experience and to share that with people you love is a really great thing it’s a really it’s a very magical I think it really brings people closer together I imagine and I don’t know and I don’t know if you would know this but the native Eric is here in this country the ceremonies that they have with peyote is probably a similar thing or you know the the American version of what they’re doing down there in the app and through would you say yeah I was hot yeah I mean it’s visionary medicine so it’s you shamans all over the world use different natural you know mushrooms or you know other things are available in different parts of the world and it is it’s amazing how it’s to me we are so supported on this planet that there’s just plants that are growing naturally that can open up our minds to other dimensions that are existing simultaneously and each other I mean and one of the thing one of the lessons that I learned it out share this briefly because I think it’s valuable to anyone who’s anyone whether you do ayahuasca or not but I learned that you can be in a dark space in ayahuasca and get yourself out like in life like we walk into a dark room sometimes like whatever life happens or we just start we wake up in just a horrible mood or beating ourselves up or feeling regret or there’s a loss and we’re really in a dark space or have a breakup in a relationship and we’re in a dark room and then it’s like how do I get how do I open how do I turn the light on in this dark room and in ayahuasca you can feel it coming like it starts to close in and you’re like oh this is getting scary and the shamans give us pointers about like okay how do you move out of that room into the into a higher vibration or a room that is not scary and it’s really about focusing your mind focusing your attention and I was in a very dark space it was starting to get dark in rasca and I started trying to like get out of it like consciously like like it’s like being in a bad dreaming or like okay how do I shift this dream okay how do I what can I think of to make myself you know not here anymore in someplace else or change the rumor and I was I just started thinking about flowers flowers it was just like a lifeline and I started thinking about all the flowers my mom grew and she and like how she would fill vases with flowers and then I started thinking about the rain and the rain falling on flowers and falling on me and it was like instantly I was someplace else it was like but by focusing my attention I made that shift and then I mean that it’s you can do it I mean like it worth practicing before you go like you know monitor where you are are you in the light rail or the dark room when you grumbling and you can’t seem to stop well how do you shift it like start to practice consciously shifting your space and then when you’re in the ayahuasca you’ll have that little view and you’ll have worked that muscle and you’ll know how to do it but it’s something once you learn it you know that it’s always even you can’t instantly change your mood or you know drop a negative conversation in your head it’s like you know that that you can and so it’s like you know I have you’ve ever been in that space where you’re like okay I’m going to meditate even though I’m just wrump I’m so upset I’m so mad but I’m disarmed or whatever I’m just going to sit and meditate anyway and then your mind just what’s the point it won’t work and you just do it anyway or you just do whatever it takes to feel better and then also you are like oh wait I am feeling better when do that how does it do it so so that was that was something I think a huge takeaway for me with the with ayahuasca to see that I actually have a lot more and I want to say control but influence over my state of mind and how I’m perceiving things and then I think I do so when when was the last time you went and what are you going next well I went five years ago and my native over a five yeah I was five I think with five years marriage four years ago I stayed for a month and I did back-to-back tours which means I did a tour then I had a week off and I did another tour and and it will tell you the whole time in between I was in Iquitos and I woke up every in the middle of the night sharing a carros I woke up in the morning up hearing a carros I took I don’t know how many showers a day just to bring the energy down and it was like it was almost like doing three weeks of ceremony alright so much so it was and but you know oh it’s a long way to go to Peru so it’s like you might as well again make it make the most fit so so that was I got a lot out of that trip and then after that I went to Cusco and went to Machu Picchu again by myself this time and it’s right away I would I’ve actually been thinking about going in January but I don’t know if I’ll go this I might just wait a year I’ve got another pilgrimage plan for the fall so that’s I’m going to I’m going to wait and but eventually I’ll probably go in the next couple just talking about it makes me want to go because it’s like it is such a incredible peak experience to get to work with the measurement will keep room on the plane for you okay from crowd where we’re coming up on the hour but I wanted to ask you have you found anything in a u.s. equivalent that you didn’t have to fly across the world to go and get a similar experience well Hamilton souther who’s the shaman who founded blue Marco he’s now based out of some class in Colorado and he’s doing some online classes like with the akar O’s and that would be and I participated in in those and it’s like that I’m not taking Iowa I’m not taking any substance to do it but once the ayahuasca is in you the spirits are always in you so that would be like one one thing you can do though when you get home like it but it’s amazing – like I’m amazed with how he’s such a incredible shaman and he’s really with his boys able to bring me on the journey and it’s like I can connect right back into it with which is singing so that would that would be something just to connect with Blue Morpho in the United States in Egypt yeah you definitely gave us a man a lot to chew on I’m sure we’ll have you on to either before we go or right afterwards if you’re with us or not I know I just signed up with a group here or the psychedelic Atlanta and there’s some people about in the first meeting on Saturday so there’s some people that have gone to Peru and and it’ll be good it just seems like the stars are aligning like like it happened to you way back when and look at the lining for our group to go to any last words before we head out well I just just know that you’re saying yes to a calling that’s really from spirit and that’s pretty awesome and whenever we say whenever we do that whenever we answer that call it’s like it’s it’s like the path is laid out before you know it’s like we’re really it’s wonderful it’s a wonderful way to live life is to live you know a spirit based life and and it’s an adventure so you’re gonna have a great great time and we’ll be like just be prepared for lots of like it unfold in its own way but to learn lots about yourself now that sounds well-fed yeah and yeah it was definitely a pleasure Karen and again this is Karen Miller and she was giving us her take as the expert over a 10-year period before the ayahuasca retreats in Peru we definitely appreciate it this is intrinsic motivation from a homies perspective this is Hamza and I’m David and we look forward to catching you guys on the next podcast thanks again Karen you’re bound by fire you you [Music] [Music]

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