Did you know that you can monetize creativity by helping creative minds earn more from your work interview with Nancy Fulton? Check out the interview below.
Speaker 1: 00:00:02 Good morning. Good evening, good afternoon everybody out there in podcast land. You are in tuned to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homies perspective. This is Hamza and today I’m excited about our guest because she is going to help creative minds earn more from their work and for those here in Atlanta, we were really excited over the past week because they had the presidential debates here in Atlanta and it was at Tyler Perry studio and he’s a creative mind and he definitely earned more from his work going beyond just the ordinary and he doesn’t have to be a unicorn because our guest today is going to show us how to get around that. She’s been writing, producing, and publishing profitably across media for more than 25 years. She’s taught for you UCLA, the artists to Autodesk. She was a developer and senior business mentor for startup for a startup school in the UK.
Speaker 1: 00:00:59 She’s managed a team of lawyers, MBAs and educators and more. She also has a group that provides over 25,000 writers, screenwriters and producers, informative face to face workshops. I’m sure you’re ready for me to stop talking so we can hear about this awesome expert. Without further ado, I’d like to welcome Nancy Fulton to the podcast. Welcome Nancy. Hey, how are you doing today? Good. And I’m glad you could make the podcast today. Thank you very much for inviting me. It’s very cool. Yeah, and I get a lot of calls and just people face to face and there and there are a lot of creatives and I think this is probably the golden age. I want to get your cake. With the exception of maybe Disney, they say they are the Netflix killer. I am not so sure yet about that one. But outside of that, there’s so many mediums where these creative minds to have outlets where before we didn’t have as many, and I’m sure talking with you over this next hour, we can kind of leverage some of your expertise so that it’s no longer just a dream.
Speaker 1: 00:02:05 It become, it could become a reality. I think that there’s a lot of misunderstandings about what it takes to be successful as a creative, and I’ve been working for, I’ve spent many years working as an instructor, specifically supporting people who want to earn a good living doing what they actually love. And one of the things I think is most disabling is when people believe that what they’re looking for is someone to approve their work and someone to say it’s okay for them to create. They’re looking for somebody rich and wealthy to take an interest in them. When the truth is that they gather an audience of people who actually liked their work and people that are willing to pay $5 $10 $20 in order to see their work, they pretty much can write their own ticket. And it’s that. It’s that search for the audience that
Speaker 2: 00:03:00 Actually truly loves you, that really matters. It’s not the, when you have that, it’s easy to get approved by people in Hollywood. You know, you go, if you walk into somebody’s office in Hollywood and you say, I have 100,000 people that like me very much, they tend to be a lot more interested in talking to you. Then if you say, you know, I have a lot of, I have a really great book here. I live really great screenplay here, or look I was in that play warm. So my focus tends to be more on helping creative master the skills they actually need in order to make a living. Not necessarily the ones who’ve been told they have to have in the past. Absolutely. And so when, when did you start seeing that? I think from my side, from a music perspective it was the 90s with the whole Napster’s and such and that was changing of the guard where the traditional business model for recording was, like you said going through the studios are getting approved and then you had in the two thousands you had social media and so record labels were actually looking at your social media profile in your, in your fans before they would sign you.
Speaker 2: 00:04:05 It was more of you becoming more entrepreneurial and being rewarded for that? Well, I think there’s, there’s, it’s always been the case, but if you’ve been able to develop a following for yourself that you’ve been able to be very successful. Robin Williams was in the park and in New York city doing mine and then he came out to the West coast and he started working in doing stand up, just, you know, which it was pretty easy to do even back then, you know, stand up in a bunch of different bars. But the thing is, he was just electric. People really did just like him. And after a relatively short period of time, people would see Robin Williams on the, on the marquee and they would actually turn up at that place and you know, buy those strengths and pay for the ticket to get in. So he, he was another, he was an example of somebody who kind of approved themselves.
Speaker 2: 00:04:52 And I think that the, in the music industry, if you could draw a big crowd and music, you know, music supervisor and music agent or manager would turn up. If you didn’t have a big crowd, somebody might believe in you. But, but the first step would be trying to get you a big crowd in order in order to make record companies pay attention to you. So it’s always been the case that if you’ve got an audience, then it’s easy for you to get revenue. And I want to be clear, I think one of the hugest changes we have is that it’s actually never been easier for you to take money from people like to have people give you money. In the old days, you know, it was difficult to have, to rent a location and to get people in there and to get to take their money.
Speaker 2: 00:05:41 There wasn’t online transactions in the 80s you know, you really had to kind of show up at some doors someplace or call somebody. I’m telephone with it, credit card to do things. Nowadays it’s pretty easy to sell tickets to sell. Cds has held DVDs and so downloads, it’s, there’s a million different ways for you to present what you have to an audience and have them pay you. That isn’t, that has been a huge change because it means that when you have 10,000 people that love your play or love your music, it’s easy for you to say, well, if you want to get it, just go here. And people will go and they will actually put, you know, they’re comfortable doing transactions online and that means that it’s easy for you to take 10,000 people who want to pay you 20 bucks and turn it into $200,000. That wasn’t always the case that that’s actually been the major change is the ability to accept financial transactions online.
Speaker 1: 00:06:33 Sure. That will, let me ask you a want to go into the main, you use the example of Robin Williams and he ultimately went to California and you’ve been in the business for a long time. Do you think it’s still important to have some of that corporate background? Does it refine what you do as an independent?
Speaker 2: 00:06:51 I think that I think having access to very talented people who can groom your work and make it, you know, more and more pretty more and more beautiful sounding is very valuable. I think you and I are both aware that in the 80s when there was a huge infrastructure for successful musicians, you’ve got a kind of highly produced music that you don’t get it. It’s harder to get now. Like music tends to be more raw now because you don’t have the same kinds of producers spending an entire year on an album, you know, or not just producers, but 15 sound engineers and you know, it’s a huge orchestra. So I think in terms of having talent, the ability to acquire talent to work on your projects, that has changed. But I also think that people don’t care as much about a lot of people, like more unique, and I want to say Rob, but it’s kind of, it’s not raw so much as authentic, want more authentic media.
Speaker 2: 00:07:53 You can look at a lot of films that have been more successful when they’ve been kind of Rocky looking, you know, like stuff that’s been shot in a single room or, or people, I think people are looking for different kinds of media. There’s a lot of different kinds of people looking for different kinds of media. We’re more diverse in terms of the content that we want to buy. And it makes it a little bit easier for artists to find in a market when they couldn’t have in the past. And it also means that the kind of content that they have to produce maybe easier for them to produce. Right. I guess what I’m trying to say is there’s just a lot more diversity now in terms of the amount of content that you could sell and the audiences that you can serve. We’re not as, it’s not like the 1950s where you know, there was going to be, you know, the six guys that do rock, you know, they were the rock people.
Speaker 2: 00:08:45 Now you can have a lot of, now you can have like a lot of diversity when it comes to musical styles and the a lot of, and people can gather up an audience, you know, from all over the country that happens to like their work and they can become very successful even when they’re the only, they’re the only person that produces that kind of work. You know what I mean? If you don’t have to fit in as much, you know? Absolutely. and so let me ask you about when you’re talking about authentic media, right? And so I’m thinking, I mean it’s 20, 19, so we’re about 14 years of YouTube being in existence. And so every couple of years we have these algorithm updates or end of the world screw people screaming from the Hills. And the current argument is, well, YouTube wanted the authentic media initially and it was grainy and those videos actually really did well.
Speaker 2: 00:09:41 Now it’s, you know, it’s a profitable model and so you have more of the corporations getting in. And so authentic media feels somewhat threatened. Do you think that platform one authentic media just to kind of build up that content base and then ultimately move on to the more professional polished arena? Well, it’s actually kind of an interesting thing. I recommend strongly that people don’t use don’t use YouTube. And I recommend strongly that they don’t use Facebook really to sell media. So here’s the thing, the only way that you as as a creative professional, the only time you really win is when you have people’s email addresses and or telephone number so you can get back to them again, right? That’s how you win. And you’ll notice that every single service that you sign up to, whether it’s a YouTube or even Amazon, certainly at Netflix and all of these platforms, what they care about is when you sign up, the first thing they get from you is your email address.
Speaker 2: 00:10:40 And then, and then you can have access to some content. And the reason is that they realize that if they have your email address, they can, they can feed you content, feed you opportunities going forward. So when you’re creating your content, when you just post it up on YouTube, what’s happening is people can go to YouTube, they can find your content, but you don’t get any benefit out of it. It’s very difficult for you to push people to YouTube and make them buy your stuff. It’s only the only people you can actually, you know, they might get a subscribed notice, but they get 50,000 subscribed notices in the day. You know, like, or notices that that they have subscribed to something that just posted a new video. It doesn’t really provide a lot of direct benefit to the creator. Whereas if you post your content on your site such that when people, in order to, for people to see it, they actually have to give you an email address the next time you want to reach out to them with something that may be free or maybe something that you, that you, they should pay for.
Speaker 2: 00:11:36 You have the ability to do that whenever you work through an intermediary platform like YouTube, that’s not possible. You can sort of do it on Facebook, but Facebook now charges you to contact people that are following you unless they’re a member of your group. And even then, I’m not sure how, you know, get, getting them to actually pay is a drag. So it’s really just better if people go to your website, get your content, you know, by giving you an email address so that you can reach out to them going forward. And that, that’s really easy to do these days. So there’s a huge number of tools like gumroad.com if you go to gumroad.com you basically just post an image, post a description and upload the video or the audio file or the whole album or whatever you, you know, the PDFs, the ebook, whatever. And then you can create a coupon code, which lets you give that away to anybody who clicks on the link for free, but you get their email address and then you can reach them again.
Speaker 2: 00:12:32 But if you, I guess what I’m trying to say is it doesn’t make sense to put all of your content on YouTube because you’re making YouTube wealthy. They’re getting a lot of, they’re getting the ability to advertise to your customers, but you’re not getting the ability to reach them. So what’s the upside for you? Right. That’s another thing is they’re not making it easy. In the old days, they made it easy to monetize through advertisements, but now they’re not doing that anymore. So again, what’s the upside to you? It’s like you really have to think about what do I get out of this transaction? You know? And I think you did a huge public service announcement to the audience for sure. And saying that the money is in the list or the money is in the relationships with the list. Yes. Right, exactly. That is exactly right.
Speaker 2: 00:13:19 If you don’t have the list, then that’s what your objective is. You know, when somebody gives you their email address, it’s the same as them paying you a dollar $5. Because in the future, if you, if you, if they like you enough to get you that email address, then when you reach out to them subsequently, there’s a much higher probability that they’re going to actually give you revenue. And your objective, your metric for whether or not you’re being successful as a creative is how many people are willing to give you their email address. If I, let’s pretend I go to a standup comedy club anywhere in the country and let’s say that I, you know, I just bring down the house, I’m just, I have, you know, I’m Eddie, I’m Eddie Murphy. I can bring down the house. Well, if I tell those folks, look, you think this show is amazing, you should see what I got online.
Speaker 2: 00:14:05 You know, if he gets from a room of 500 you know, 300 people who actually go to his website and download something, that means the next time he goes to a show and he, he talks to the, the owner of the store. And he goes, look, actually I can sell out your next five performances cause I got 300 people, you know, I got, you know, 5,000 people who would like to see me. So I would like to get a percentage of the box office. Right. That’s a conversation that you can have because each one of those customers that comes to your performance is going to be spending 50 bucks, maybe 20 bucks on food or 30 bucks and another 30 bucks on drinks and you know, tips and stuff. You know what I’m saying? Like if you don’t have that, if you don’t have that audience that you could point to, how can you ever make that deal?
Speaker 2: 00:14:53 And also, how can I say, look, you know, screw it. I’m just going to go ahead and rent a location that I’m going to do. Start doing my own shows, which people do do. So, or how I’m going to release this album. You know, I’m going to actually, you know, I’m going to release a comedy set. It’s like, how can you have that? If you don’t have the contact information, you can’t get back to those people. So you, so the people’s need to be thinking in terms of how is my work good enough that people will give me their email address. And if it is, then you, you’re good. You know what I mean? Like you’re really pretty unstoppable.
Speaker 3: 00:15:28 Absolutely. I’m singing your praises for sure. And I definitely were preaching to the choir here, but I’m glad you just excellently provided examples of why that makes sense. And it makes me think of a couple of years ago where Taylor Swift was vilified. The example was someone had just gotten married and they post a wedding videos on Facebook, but they were using her song and so she had them take it down and now it’s like, well, Taylor Swift is evil, but she was actually managing or controlling her product.
Speaker 2: 00:16:04 Right. Well, and also I think there’s something to be said for the fact that as a creative professional, there’s a thing called copyright and it’s actually one of the most strongest. It’s one of the strongest forms of property protection we have in this country. So, but it has to be enforced in order to remain in effect, if I, if you continuously let people violate your copyright, and especially if they do it very publicly, if they continuously do that, you do lose the right to be able to say, that’s mine. Don’t steal it. So that is why you see musicians going to politicians and saying, you know, this song you keep using, I did not, we did not authorize that. Our music label didn’t authorize that. You haven’t licensed it, don’t use it anymore. So one of the reasons they do that is because if they don’t enforce there, first of all confirm people using it are stupid.
Speaker 2: 00:16:54 And second of all, because the people that are stealing that content and making it so it’s easy to steal that content in the future. And it’s, especially for musicians, it’s as you know, it’s egregious, right? I mean people will routinely routinely steal music. Kind of tragic actually it turns to feel a screenplay and harder to steal a play cause I can usually you can catch people doing it. You have to advertise a play. So if I, if Matt, you know, you want an exciting few hours, try saying that you’re going to do a David Mamet play without his authorization because again, anti you, he will be sued.
Speaker 3: 00:17:29 And I, I liked the fact that you worked with or continue to work with attorneys because we’re not bashing social media. I think you want to leverage it. I would get your take on that. But there’s so much legal ease on that that no one reads. And one of that, part of that fine print is we own everything that you post on social media. So you’ll
Speaker 2: 00:17:50 Know you have a picture with your dog in the backyard and now it’s part of a commercial when you’re watching TV on Sunday. Right? Well it’s not, it’s actually not supposed to be and you can certainly fight back. But what I would say is that YouTube, one of the reasons that YouTube is difficult for me to life is the fact that early on it’s completely capitalized on its ability to steal media. You know, YouTube was a company later purchased by Google and they had incredible amounts of stolen content. And the big studios, when you register your work as a musician with the performing rights organizations like ASCAP and so forth, what they do is they inform YouTube. They better stop stealing music. They also inform restaurant owners that they better stop, stop playing music illegally. They actually aggressively defend your rights and make sure that when people do use your work, in theory, you’re going to get paid for it.
Speaker 2: 00:18:44 So that’s something that musicians have. But what’s interesting is if you have music that is not registered with pro and it’s made available on YouTube, YouTube doesn’t stop that use. So you, so it’s kind of leveraging the fact that they can steal music with impunity. They can allow the festive music with impunity. And that’s because YouTube says we’re not a publisher. We are a where for lack of a better word, a forum, we’re a place where people, we’re a platform where people post things. We’re not responsible for what people post and it’s like, except that you sell advertising on this platform so you’re monetizing stolen work. So I think that does actually make you a publisher. I actually do believe that both Netflix and you, sorry, sorry, both, not Netflix, both Facebook and YouTube should be treated as publishers and that means that they should be responsible for enforcement of copyright and they shouldn’t, you know, like heavy duty.
Speaker 2: 00:19:56 I mean right now you can inform them they’re going to take it down, something down. But I’ve never had that actually work in any kind of timely fashion. If I, if somebody posts illegal music or a video that that is illegal. If it’s representative, if it’s protected by one of the big studios, that might get taken down, you know, if it’s music by, you know, in certain big name bands here, that might get taken down. But if it’s just you, you know, an original composition that you’ve created that somebody is feeling and you file a take down, notice that’s not gonna happen. And meanwhile, the person that posted it can be earning ad revenue, right? Even though you can’t earn ad revenue, even though you cannot directly because you don’t have the right relationship with YouTube and you know what that relationship is, how many audience, how many subscribers do you have?
Speaker 2: 00:20:43 Right? So even so even YouTube cares how many people are following you and they allow people to have a lot of followers they post post-conflict that they don’t own. I mean it’s the whole thing is like, I don’t like those platforms from that perspective. I think they should be treated as publishers and I think they should be held very accountable whenever stolen property ends up on their site because I think it is making it so musicians can, or living musicians particularly actually. Sure. And that’s why we’re talking about helping creative minds earning more for your work. And what comes to mind is, I don’t remember the artist’s name cause I guess I’m out of that demographic. Unfortunately, somebody told me, I was like, grandpa, you know, they call me sir. So anyway, exactly.
Speaker 2: 00:21:33 I live longer than you and you may not live as long. That’s like sir. I’m like, okay, I got to get out of this media. So, so anyway, there’s this artist they leverage they just could had just come out there from Alabama somewhere, I don’t know, Bible belt somewhere and they went on. What was the site? It was they posted on YouTube and they posted on Oh man, I wish I can remember this right now. I’m ruining it. Anyway, the, it’s just like was huge. It was a big media site. And they posted it and they got like a billion views or whatever and he didn’t get any money from it. Right. So how do you have faith in yourself and that, you know, what I need to use and leverage these, the major platforms, like I said, these posting platforms, because no one else will know me. I just have my rinky dinky website that I just posted on Wix yesterday. How do you make that? I think one thing you do is you make sure that when you post content on your on YouTube, when it this other side, it’s, it’s clearly labeled and you make sure that, that people know how to get to your website and you make sure that in the description on your if it’s, if it’s a video, you make sure that you actually put in the
Speaker 4: 00:23:02 [Inaudible]
Speaker 2: 00:23:03 You know, the URL that they should go to in order to get something more and something better. I think the [inaudible] and then if you, if you’re going to buy advertising by advertising to point to your own media so that, that gets to be the one that’s the popular version, not the stolen version that somebody else posted. But I really find, I really think that
Speaker 4: 00:23:25 [Inaudible]
Speaker 2: 00:23:26 Again, music is one of the hardest things in the sense that it’s hard unless you water Mark’s music, it’s relatively difficult for you to prove, to create that connection, to tell people this great time that you just heard is available at this particular website. Just because the does not allow for it. But if you’re doing video, you’re doing books, you certainly can do it. And you’ll have, and you absolutely should. With music it’s a little bit more complicated and I think you basically end up having to create music videos where the, where the, the images are as important as the work. So what I’m saying is the audio and that’s because the video will, will take off. And that is one of the reasons why videos have taken off, why people create videos was because it’s, it, it makes more compelling set of images.
Speaker 2: 00:24:14 You know, more compelling media sites like YouTube and sites like Facebook. But it’s a difficult, the, the most important thing is if you’re constantly focusing on how do I get people to my website, how do I make it so that people get to my website, they download something and I can tell them how to give me money for my next album or how to give them next give me money from my next performance or how to give me money for my next book or audio book. How can I reach them going forward to tell them about my best work so they can buy it. If you can keep your focus on that, it means that you’ll, you’ll end up developing an audience. He gives you the money that you need in order to be able to buy the advertisements that you need on Facebook, on Facebook, and on YouTube to drive traffic to your website instead of driving it to somebody else’s, a website when they pirated your work. You know what I mean? It’s like some degree you have to have money in order to be able to fight that fight and to have the money you have to be able to have an audience.
Speaker 3: 00:25:17 So I have a 80s question for you. Did video killed the radio star?
Speaker 2: 00:25:24 Actually she kind of did, didn’t it? I mean it’s really tragic but it kind of did. I mean all of a sudden just radio wasn’t good enough. And for a lot of a lot of people. And I remember being in the eighties I remember waiting to see the next, like MTV was a huge thing cause you would literally watch the videos and those mem, those images would become an indelible part of the song and it, and also you would tell people go watch the video on, go watch the video on, go watch the video. And so I think it did, I think it did make radio kind of a second class citizen. And I definitely think the internet made radio a second class citizen.
Speaker 3: 00:26:05 Oh yeah. I had, I had a friend come in from out of town and he was like, what are you guys listen to the radio? And I was like, no one listens. What are you talking about? Like we’re not listening to the radio and
Speaker 2: 00:26:18 Cell phone. That’s what we have. That’s the radio when we can listen to any station worldwide. So,
Speaker 3: 00:26:24 And I heard this independent artists say this and I want to get your opinion on this. He’s in your neck of the woods too. He’s in Los Angeles. And what he said was that we’ve been, we the consumer has been, have been con and, and what does that mean? So when you, in the 90s when you probably were like me and, and hung out in record stores
Speaker 1: 00:26:44 And such and you got to the experience, you, you held onto the vinyl or whatever. Right? And so your outlay may have been, I dunno, 15 $20 he said, but today you’re paying monthly for the stream and you’re paying forever so you’re actually paying more than you paid a generation ago. What’s your take on that?
Speaker 2: 00:27:07 Well, I definitely think two things are true actually. The, whenever you have a DVD and old style DVD, DVD or CD, you were allowed actually to make backup copies for yourself. Like you actually couldn’t, like, you know, you’d go and you’d buy the latest, you know, pretenders album and you know, it was possible for it to get scratched. So you had a right to make a tape backup of that so that you could listen to it without damaging the original. It was actually in the licensing. And that’s absolutely what you cannot do right now. I would say that it is more unusual for people to pay as much, like used to be you buy a whole album for 10 or 20 bucks. Now you basically just buy the songs that you like. So that’s one thing. The other thing is that streaming services like Spotify, a lot of times you can listen to those things.
Speaker 2: 00:27:58 Or Sirius XM, you know, you can listen to those things and the authors, the creative, the works maybe not getting puts a lot of money, but you’re certainly getting access to quite a bit. So I think that the consumer probably won that transaction compared to the artists. But I think the people that really run to the people that are providing the hosting service, which is, you know, Sirius XM or YouTube or all of these other platforms that basically gather up huge quantities of content and put them available on demand. I mean, there’s no doubt, certainly no doubt that that’s true for Amazon. They certainly one, they have the GDP of a country.
Speaker 1: 00:28:39 Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. As, as we about to embark on a black Friday.
Speaker 2: 00:28:45 Yes, no, seriously, I’m sitting, I’m looking at this thinking God, those people are like, and again, think about what those people did, right? They have everybody’s email at this. And I remember you and I probably both remember when, I don’t know how old you were, but my first consumer, I created a website that provided training online in the night 1996 is when it launched. And it was kind of me and Amazon out there for a long time. You know, like I would tell people, well, I’m basically writing a book that just gets better and better and better. And they go, nobody’s going to pay you for something that you do. You deliver only online. And I go, but they will. And then simultaneously, I remember there were all these things for Amazon and they were selling books and I said, look, they take, they take money and then they send you a book and then, or they’ll send you a DVD, they’ll send you stuff, you give them money, people give me money sometimes.
Speaker 2: 00:29:36 So it’s what’s different. And they go, well you know, Amazon’s never going to work either it’s going to fall apart. And I’m like, I don’t think so. I think it’s going to be okay. And it’s so, but what they did right is they had, they had people’s contact information and they market to them all the time, which is one of the reasons they have all all those movies up there. It’s constant. Every time you see that logo go by you go, Oh yeah Amazon. That’s where, but that’s why I buy things. Amazon, they sell, they don’t just sell movies, they sell book and movies are great for them. So cause there’s literally no cost once it toasted, you know, they just basically post the content and then suddenly bandwidth when people actually watch a movie. So talk about like making millions of dollars or hundreds of millions, billions of dollars selling electrons. That’s all I have one of respect for the technology involved in Amazon because those people, it’s like printing money. I wish that like this looks better.
Speaker 3: 00:30:35 Well it’s funny cause they’re talking about being a disruptor. Right? And so I’m sure you’ve seen the photo too of him. And I don’t know, he probably had some strip mall or something and paying $50 a month for four Amazon starting out. Right. And he, yeah, he had this dream and like you said, there were the conventional wisdom of nobody’s gonna do this. And it made me think of this week, I want to get your opinion because you know, everyone was glued to the unveiling of the Elon Musk truck and the windows didn’t work like they were supposed to. And you know, people are going to write them off for that. But 10 years from now there will be those trucks on the road. So when you think about disruptors,
Speaker 2: 00:31:21 I think I’m, I’m think disruptors are, there’s good disruption and bad disruption. You know, it’s like the first guy who decided to shoot up the school was probably a disruptor, will be like that guy at all. So disruption changes society and it changes things in huge ways for both good and ill. You know, Donald Trump is a disruptor. You can point to a million disruptors that maybe were not also fond of. And I think Elon Musk is kind of a perfect example of that. He is incredibly ambitious and he, he takes on the kind of projects that almost nobody else will take on. And I think that he is going to be remembered. He, I think he will be remembered for a long time and you’ll have it have had a major impact on our society. One of the reasons because he’s one of the first people who’s a private individual, a private company to decide to take on space things related to space travel and satellites.
Speaker 2: 00:32:09 And you know what I’m saying? It’s like that’s incredibly ambitious. And that car that you mentioned, what’s car, you’re actually one of the most obnoxious things on earth to innovate and DeLorean went out of business and he did have a really good car and he was giving, did crazy things trying to keep it going. But the returns, there are tremendous returns. The scale by PR for producing things like cars in huge quantities and you have to have very deep pockets to sort of enter that industry. And as successful as muscular been, he is not necessarily got quite deep enough pockets to be able to get that car, you know, that’s going to, that’s going to be expensive, you know, and I think you may very well end up being successful, but he could probably have invested his money in other things that would have been easier to make a big, to make a big return on. The interesting thing is I don’t think he cares. I don’t think it’s all about money for him.
Speaker 1: 00:33:05 [Inaudible] Yeah, I think that’s the, the other thing I want to ask you because I think he was a part of PayPal and sold PayPal and so he could have written off into the sunset and you know, he had his pile of money and he could have been drinking my ties and I’m sure what you’re, we’re talking about creative minds. Does it ever end, is there an end goal? Like, I want to sell a million. I won’t have a million people view my video audio. And then right off to the sunset. What, what keeps you going? Is there an inner fire?
Speaker 2: 00:33:39 I don’t think there’s, I don’t think there’s most creative people that I know most very, most incredibly successful creative people I know are the very definition of driven. And what they do for fun is what we call work. So even on Muskie, that risks, those risks that he takes and the businesses that he builds, that’s what he does for fun. So the more money he gets, the more success he enjoys, the more he wants to do that. So it’s kind of a perpetual motion machine. These people don’t have the same, don’t, don’t want to rest. It does not come times. They have a desire to be someplace quiet for a few hours or a few days. But generally speaking, they don’t, they don’t, their idea of rest is what is that which they do, right? Just like famous musicians don’t really, let’s look this one out. Famous magicians, very talented, very successful musicians.
Speaker 2: 00:34:45 When those two things are put together, the ones that go big, they go big because they’re eating, breathing and sleeping it almost as a sacrifice and usually to the sacrifices, every single other thing in their family, they are, they are very driven to do this thing. And actually this sort of a segue that I’ll just mention and I think it’s something that helps. It’s been, it was helpful to me oddly. So my dad was an engineer and I remember I graduated from college, I went home and I was explaining to him, I didn’t know what I wanted to do for living in somewhere on page two of whatever it was. I was saying, he looked at me, he said, are you trying to ask how to get rich? And I go, yeah. And he goes, okay, he says this year and he drove you to the bell curve.
Speaker 2: 00:35:29 You know, the standard bell curve that we all see when they talk about, you know, intelligence or anything else because this is a bell curve for every single property in the world. You, that you could possibly have, you fall somewhere along this curve. It could be something, you know, you could, you fall here for your Heights and you fall here for your verbal ability and here for your mathematical ability and here for your entrepreneurial ability. He says, no, that’s really a very meaningful thing. He says, if you look at Kareem Abdul Jabbar to remodel decor is in the top 1%. He’s in the third standard deviation away from the mean for height. Now, if Kareem Abdul Jabbar hop into, have built his career as say, or tried to build his career as an airline pilot, well most of those guys are about six feet tall because you know, or less than six feet tall because cabins are small.
Speaker 2: 00:36:20 So he would’ve been battling, it’s like every minute of every day it was going to be somebody that’s old cars. He’d have exactly the same situation. In fact, Kareem Abdul Jabbar has to think about, he can’t even sleep in a standard size, but he’s too tall. Fortunately for claimant of bill Jabbar, he chose to be a basketball player. Now he says he has an immediate strategic advantage, which will always put him by default. And it was high on athletic ability generally. So he has a strategic advantage that will always play out in his event to his advantage. She’s playing to his strengths. He says, if you have to understand that, that which makes you the most that will make you the most successful is the thing that will re living hell and the rest of your life you have to go with your strengths because otherwise they become tremendous disadvantages.
Speaker 2: 00:37:08 And the older I’ve gotten, the more I’ve realized that it’s true, that if that you need to understand what you aren’t actually good at, what you are next, that what you are natural, you naturally find much easier than other people and you have to go with that strength because otherwise it does become like a huge anchor. I mean, and, and I will personally personal as a personal example, I, I like to teach. It’s, I’ve been doing it since my first job I ever got was actually teaching people how to do computer applications. I just, I like to teach and I think it has nothing to do with my dad being an engineer and my mom being a journalist, I have no idea. But I really, really, really like it. When I, I used to always get, you know, I always scored, you know, perfect scores and when I was teaching for UCLA and I just was highly rated wherever I taught always and I had, so it has something to do with the fact I like to talk, I like to create curricula.
Speaker 2: 00:38:10 I like the free training materials, I just like it. So I might want to do 15,000 other things and I certainly have tried that wasn’t a huge number of different things. I mean, I’ve, I can look online and find examples of audio books and stuff that I’ve done. But you know, the thing that has been easiest and the most profitable has been teaching and how it’s kind of like that, you know, which I do. And I think a lot of times people kind of decide that they’re going to reject the one thing that’s easy and it does make things harder for them. Do you know what I’m saying? What if Elon Musk did not want to be an entrepreneur? What if he did not? And you imagine that guy working for you, like how’s that going to work out? He’s always gonna want to do something you’re not doing.
Speaker 2: 00:39:02 He’s always going to be talking about the next pill, the next challenge. It’s going to get bored with the thing that you’re currently working on. It’ll be a constant. So I guess people see two messages. One, consider going with your strength, excuse me, and consider going with your strengths and then maybe look at the thing that’s causing you the most hassle and figuring out why it’s causing you trouble. Because chances are that is going to be the thing that’s actually where your strength lies. It’s the thing that causes you the problem is because you can’t hide it. You can’t stop doing it. Just like remodels where I can’t stop being seven feet tall.
Speaker 1: 00:39:39 [Inaudible] And the only thing I would say in response to the example of Kareem Abdul Jabbar was he was an actual airplane pilot, an airplane.
Speaker 2: 00:39:52 So you can meet, you can, you can, you can totally live your dreams after you’ve done with your third Sandy GVSU characteristics. No, but it’s, it’s, it is an interesting thing, isn’t it? You know, it’s like the fact that when you were in school, they never tell you the fact that you insist on doodling on every single piece of paper. The fact that you know, getting your physics questions right. You know, it doesn’t happen. But you know, you really got a great handle on perspective. They know, tell you, you know, you know this thing, but it’s annoying the crap out of all of them. The same you do, that turns out to be the thing you should do. It turns out you can’t be stopped at it. Just like so when you live out here in the West coast, you get to see all kinds of interesting events.
Speaker 2: 00:40:36 Other people. I just, earlier this week I saw went to USC and they had a screening with Robert Downey jr and his wife and Shane black and the producer was kiss, kiss, bang, bang and they would just talk about how much fun it was to make that particular movie. Well, did you know, did you know that Robert Downey jr left high school? Like they called him in, he actually went to my kid’s high school. He went in and they said, okay Robert, listen, you’re very bright person but you know, you’re, you’re, you’re entering your junior year, you’re not really going to graduate. It’s the thing we have going on here, but it’s okay Robert, you can save that. You can just, you know, this summer if you go to school that it did do that. And he’s looking at them and he said, I thought, well I have plans for my summer so that’s probably going to happen until he tried to explain this to these nice people. Like I have actually planned for my summer. So, and they go, well we’re just going to have to call your dad. And he goes, time is it? They go, well, you know it’s nine o’clock or nine 30 whatever. And he goes, okay, they call his dad. His dad’s like, yeah, I told them, I don’t know what the hell he’s doing there.
Speaker 2: 00:41:49 Right. So it’s like so, but he, you know, you can see that Robert having brought some, just imagine having Robert Kennedy jr as a teenager in your high school class. I guarantee you if that guy’s in the room and you’re the teacher, every I’s going to be riveted on him every single minute of every single day because that’s what he does. That’s his thing. You know Robin Williams, can you imagine like you mean Robin Williams got his instructors at Juilliard told Robin Williams police, we got nothing to teach you. You were like this, there’s nothing we can teach you. Right. So my point being, I think I like to tell people sometimes the stuff that gives you the most trouble, cause that could be where you should be looking. It’s like, it’s almost like it’s trying to tell you, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. You know, so, and I also think that that if you can take that thing that you do naturally and turn it into and turn it into something that you can monetize, can turn into money, then you know your, your career is made, you will be successful and you’ll enjoy the work that you do because it’s what you do naturally.
Speaker 1: 00:43:01 And thanks for the example with the Robert Downey jr. I’m going to group him with my next question with with relation to Steve jobs. And so it may have been around, but in my awareness of Steve jobs was the one that said that and he said a failing forward. And he was talking about, you know, today nobody has the, the first iPhone or the first iPod, right? There’s so many iterations cause they’re continuing to improve. And there’s many examples like a Robert down in junior year or Steve jobs where you may have a bright start and then something happens where there’s upheaval and a lot of people are left. Like that’s a defining moment where they kind of go back to doing insurance or something. How do you continue being creative when you meet that first roadblock?
Speaker 2: 00:43:52 Well, I definitely think if you’re building on something that you can’t, that you do naturally, that you can’t, you’re your third standard deviation characteristics. The thing that is to you, hi, like remodel Jabbar. I think you’ll find that you can’t choose to stop it. So I could choose, I could be a not a natural comic. It could just be the kind of person that used to make teachers want to murder me because I always made jokes in class and most the first thing that always came to mind was really feeling people, well, I’ll just do that. I’ll literally just end up doing that in in my insurance job. I ended up doing that. If I’m working in technical support on telephones, I will end up doing that. If I’m working retail, I end up working doing that. A farm on a construction site.
Speaker 2: 00:44:33 The question is whether or not that thing which annoys people will end up doing something that I monetize. And I think when you look at people, I don’t think having a natural talent or natural bully doesn’t mean that you don’t also have other aspects of your life. When you look at Robert Downey jr and you look at Steve jobs, you can see that they did have other aspects of their life that were very, very seriously out of balance and Steve jobs particularly seems to have had so Steve jobs, natural talent, I think to a significant degree has something to do with being incredibly critical, like so much so that he could not choose not to be right. He could for him not telling you the truth about what he saw when he looked at your design was incredibly painful because he could see that how it was broken and he could see how he needed to be fixed in order to be better in order to work more the way he wanted it to work.
Speaker 2: 00:45:30 Like if they can wait, it seem bright. So he was kind of a living hell for people at his office could see wood as time went by and they’re working on higher and higher end projects. He would just get to the point where he would look at something that you’d spent six weeks under, six months on and say that is crap. Or you’d bring him something, somebody would remember, a team would bring him something and he wouldn’t just say that it’s crap. He’d say, that is, and you are fired because you didn’t get anywhere in his strike zone. Right? So I think that, and but it didn’t necessarily mean that he had an incredibly successful personal life. Right.
Speaker 2: 00:46:16 And I think that that is true for tremendous number of these people that have, the more it’s difficult to balance, the farther out you are on that parameter, the more it’s going to impact your day to day life. You know, and I want to mention sometimes the third standard deviation characteristic that people have. So something very minor, but it’s, it’s, it can’t prove critical to them. I may have an incredibly good sense of smell, just so much so that, you know, when I’m in my, like I have to be careful about the cleaning products on my house. Right? I may have that as my third center deviation characteristic. So I can, I can choose to build my career on creating perfume. You know? Or I can, excuse me, hold on one second.
Speaker 2: 00:47:09 I think, excuse me, I can choose to build my career. All right. Well maybe it’s the case that I can see a lot more colors than other people. A lot, lot, lot more colors than other people. Well, that starts to make me be somebody to be a designer because I can see something that other people can’t easily see. It means that when people look at my work, they’ll go, that is the most beautiful thing I ever saw. And they want to understand why. But it’s because the colors are right for the first time ever, right? So it can be [inaudible] characteristics can be incredibly small. Sometimes they can also be incredibly large, you know, they can be, you know, almost unlivable. And I do think Steven jobs, I think that he was one of those people, his, his thing was perfect. He could not, he could see perfect all the time.
Speaker 2: 00:47:58 We could see we just needed to make, to make it look like this. We just need to do this. We just need to do this. And he did it on every single, every single aspect of his life. Every single aspect of his life was about perfect. And the difference between what it is now and what it could be. And I just think that can be stressful. I mean, I don’t, I use a lot of these times she’s, Oh, I don’t want, I’m so glad I don’t, I didn’t get that one. I would suck, you know, or even, or even like, you know, the ability of, of, you know, when people are really good comics and they, you know, what do you do when it’s the world, you know, you’re living through the most tragic experience in the world and yet you just, w you just have jokes coming into your head.
Speaker 2: 00:48:41 Like, it’s like this demon that won’t shut up and stop making dope, you know? Or I’ve known people that have music in their head all the time, all the time, and they have really a hard time with other people’s music because of that. You know what I mean? That’s not, that doesn’t sound right, that like, like it’s, it can be traumatizing. And I think creative people tend to be people who know that they’re creative and are driven to be creative. It is a kind of a master they have to serve where they’re punished for it. You know, somebody wants to write has to write or they’re, they feel very bad all the time. And I think it’s just,
Speaker 4: 00:49:20 Yeah,
Speaker 2: 00:49:22 I also think I mentioned it possibly. I also think some of the people, I don’t teach craft. I make a point never repeating fast cause I do have my own work, but I don’t teach people how to write the perfect screenplay. And I don’t teach people story and I don’t teach the whole bunch. I’ve basically really focused on monetization and helping people figure out how to earn a living from their work and how to find their audience. My focus is on making people earn enough that they can do what they love for a living. But I noticed in passing that most of the, most of the great, at least when it comes to plays and the plays and books and movies, they’re madness. It’s about madness. That’s what you see on the screen. That’s what makes you love it, is the fact that it’s mad.
Speaker 2: 00:50:02 It’s insane. It’s stuff that that, yeah, it’s compelling. Yeah, exactly. It’s compelling to you because it’s saying something so clearly you can’t hear it and you can’t stop hearing it. You can’t stop saying it. You’re right. The joke is kind of a perfect example. Both iterations, the joke or I will be like a Keith legends version of the joker and I liked it when you said, you know, I liked the fact that he told a different origin story several times and I liked the fact that he was, he was so incredibly deadly and, and yet so incredibly smart. And yet what he cared about was manipulating people, right? It was just, he was just a very strange character. And I think the delivery of that character, when Heath ledger did it, and also again with the recent iteration, it’s compelling because you, the character makes sense in a way.
Speaker 2: 00:50:58 So you go, yes, that’s true. He’s, he’s like, that’s a personification of something that exists in the world. And now when it’s a person I can understand, I understand who it is, I understand the thing better. You know, like how like in latest innovation, the fact that he is being so abused and so abused and so abusive, he turns into a monster. And then people like the monster better because why? Because they’re feeling abused, right? It’s like, and he says, well, you know, how could you be, how can you be so cool? Because if I were not being cool and I were lying down on the ground, he wouldn’t pick me up. You know, it’s like I am showing, I’m showing you the world and that’s the truth is what’s selling. It’s the truth that we feel this way and we’re tired of being powerless about it.
Speaker 2: 00:51:46 And so I find that, and again, he’s again, that’s another performer, that guy, he can only do that. He’s there is not another, what else could that guy do? Who else could he be except that guy, like who else could walk in seen speed? He just can’t, he’s compelled and I, you know, so I think, and I think if he was starting up today, you know, the correct thing for him to do would probably be to come up as an, as an actual producer, you know, so that he could basically monetize his own work. Otherwise you’d be in a position of hoping Hollywood could see the jeans.
Speaker 3: 00:52:28 Right. Excellent. Well that was a nice full picture for that example. Matthew, are you familiar with the hashtag opt out?
Speaker 2: 00:52:38 I’m not. I should the call me about it.
Speaker 3: 00:52:41 Sure. So, you know, we’re coming on the week of black Friday and you know, there’s a lot of origin stories and how it started. And you have companies like REI that started this hashtag opt out, meaning that they are not going to take part of this consumerism and, and madness that happens at this time of year when people are running, it’s over over to get $5 off or something they wouldn’t have bought otherwise. And reason why I bring it up is while people are standing in line to get that latest tech item, you are doing a workshop same time. And so I wanted to talk to you, we’re talking a lot about, you know, that standard deviation and you’re focusing on this workshop. And what does that, what, what can people look forward to with this workshop coming up?
Speaker 2: 00:53:29 I’m actually, I’m not, I don’t think I’m doing Oh yeah, I’m doing, I’m actually, that’s pretty humorous. So yeah, I’m doing I got invited to speak at a conference in Los Angeles. It’s actually last con, which is I think one of the largest and oldest science fiction conventions in California. And I’ve been asked to go over and talk about things related to intellectual property rights and make them, all of, all of the work that I’m doing is monetization and intellectual property rights. I, my, in my own work, I actually have a, I run events. If people go to Nancy Fulton meetups.com they can actually see, I actually support 50,000. I network with 50,000 entertainment industry pros. And if you were to go up there, you would actually see the stuff that’s available for free. And then you would actually see that there’s events that I run directly and then, but this particular one is one I’ve been asked to speak at and it’s faced.
Speaker 2: 00:54:32 I’ll be, I’m going to be on a series of panels with people that are talking about how to protect your intellectual property, how to quote unquote break into Hollywood you know, with a screenplay or something like that, which has to do with how to pitch. And talking to people about how to do how to make money off of books, which is another topic that people feel strongly about. So, but those very all face to face events. I also do a lot of online events and in fact these days when I’m interviewing something, somebody I think is particularly important, I do an online event where I, so I can record it and I can make this events available later. I just did one recently with a guy who does teaches people how to get grants and he got more than $500,000 for his last documentary by raising money through grants who director nations. So when I’m doing that kind of very technical work a lot of times I’ll do that online and then I do a lot of additional work where I do face to face events which tends to be sort of somewhat some percentage of the time dedicated to networking and the rest dedicated to a particular technical topic like trying to do through raising money for projects or how to publish your book. Those kinds of topics.
Speaker 3: 00:55:52 [Inaudible] Okay. And I was thinking about all the, we were talking earlier about all the different platforms like YouTube and Facebook and such. And it made me think of a vine. It was like six seconds and you know, it’s gone now, but people are on Instagram and people got famous on all those tick talkers, people that are famous. And then ultimately they have to come to the quote unquote world world, meaning Los Angeles if they want to. I guess that viability and is there a fine
Speaker 2: 00:56:24 Line of, Hey, I just want to be independent and follow my own rules or I have to do it to a certain point so I do become viable and become part of the machine. I don’t think they actually do go, Oh actually I, pardon me for the record, I don’t think you actually do have to come to LA. In fact, I pretty much recommend that people don’t, I think they should stay where they are. They should, they should live where they want and they should make their art go where they live. Because the truth is that, so let’s say that I’m an independent film producer. I want to make independent films. And in fact I thought I had a call from a guy who says, you know, I’ve been making zombie movies quite a lot of zombie movies that I’ve been to. I’ve had several features and I make them here in this little Midwestern, in this little Midwestern state, you know, and Midwestern towns in my County.
Speaker 2: 00:57:14 And everybody’s really nice and it’s really cheap and I can actually produce them for like 50 K and you know, but I just really feel, do I have to come out to Hollywood in order to be successful? And I said, there’s no point coming up to Hollywood. You know, if you, if you can produce your, I haven’t seen what you’re showing me. Like the content that you’re creating is content I haven’t seen. And that makes it exotic and useful. And it has, it’s your zombie movies are different from an L a zombie movie and it’s cheaper for you to make them there. And you have an audience that loves you there and actively support your work and wants to show your movies up on, you know, on your in your local theaters all over your little County. What’s the upside of coming here? If you want to make, you can sell the media here without having to come here.
Speaker 2: 00:58:00 And others, if you go into right now one could go and search for iTunes aggregators and one can find dozens of people who will actually, you can pay them a fee and they’ll put it on, make your film available on iTunes and give them another fee and they’ll make it available on Amazon and another C and they’ll make it. So try to get it nod to Hulu for you. And then you get 100% of the revenue from that transaction. It’s not a traditional distribution deal. So there’s not really a value to coming here to Hollywood. There’s not, you need to be able to reach the people in order to sell the media. If you decide that you want to make that particular deal but you don’t, you yourself, your own personal self don’t have to come here unless you’re driven to do so. Some people do want to be, some people want to work on iron man movies.
Speaker 2: 00:58:49 Okay. And in order to do that, you’ve got to kind of come here cause you got to get cast by these people. Or you’ve got to be saying this where you are and you have to be enough in the know and have representation so somebody can say, Hey, this crazy guy from the Midwest, you should put them in your next iron man movie. But that’s not, that’s not most people’s careers. Do you know what I’m saying? So I think I actually actively tell people like if you’re in Atlanta or you’re in any of the States where they’re making phones, you’re, well, you’re better positioned than if you’re here. We don’t have incentives over here. It’s easier if you’re, if you’re a producer or if you’re a director or you’re an actor to stay in the state that you are, get to your, you know, take us 30% or 40% incentive and raise investment and produce your film there and then sell the media here.
Speaker 2: 00:59:38 It’s like, it’s, there’s no reason to come here. And that’s, I’m not saying you wouldn’t enjoy it, feel free. You know, you’re welcome. But you know, and you’ll probably be able to do, but you’ll end up going home to shoot your film because there’s no upside to shoot. Even here. I guess I worry that people, I, cause I, a lot of people do come here, I get a lot of people in my groups and they go, you know, like I came, you know, I gave up a good job in Chicago, you know, and I, yeah, I had a big career in Chicago. You know what I’ve done. I was with a big, but I thought I should come out West, you know, and I’m just like, well I think you probably could have stayed in Chicago. I just think that’s how media is going to work going forward. It’s not going to be the case that you have to be in a particular particular city in order to get the attention. And in fact here, the competition is really high, you know, very high. Yeah. And other words trying to get seen. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3: 01:00:41 Yeah, I know that the airlines are kind of upset with you now because people are putting their credit cards back in their pocket. They’re not flying to California.
Speaker 2: 01:00:53 It’s just not, it’s not worth it really. It’s like, and in fact, I think it can be, it’s better. It’s really better for you if you’re in Atlanta or if you’re in new Orleans or if you’re in any place and you’ve got good position in the sense that you respected and admired in that location. Figure out how to get bigger there until you get to the point where you’re sort of the best and best known there. And then visit here and you know, maybe we start inviting people from here there, right? So that it’s better to be a big session, a small pond or to be a small fish in a big pond because it’s, as you know, there’s a lot of people out here who have won Emmys, woe have won, they won the biggest awards in the industry and they can’t get a job that happens routinely out here. I know a lot of people who have Academy awards who can’t get work right. So it’s not the audience who is what matters and the people that support you and they want to work with you and the ability to, so why come to the quest for the competition specifically?
Speaker 3: 01:02:01 That’s a really good point. That’s a really good point. And we are at the top of the hour. I do have just one last question if, if you’re okay with the time. Okay. So I want to ask you a conversion question on your site and it makes, it makes me think of a first date. If I’m going out on a first date and I go to a decent restaurant and I’m about to order wine and I want to impress the girl that I’m with, but I don’t want to go too far. So I have three choices of wine. One, I’m sure you’ve heard this example before, but just for the audience. So I have, there’s an $8 glass, there is a $10 glass and there is a $12 glass and most people would get the $10 glass just because they don’t want to. Okay. So for conversion, I can sign up for a be a subscriber on your site for $20 a month or $60 a year. Where do you see the greater conversion?
Speaker 2: 01:02:59 60 actually, because it’s basically $10 because basically it’s not as much. But actually there’s it on my nephew for meetups, there’s actually a free thing and that’s basically one of my favorite exercises, which favorite workbook video combinations, which basically just tells people like 19 different ways that they can start monetizing their work. And what’s interesting to me is how many people actually just go ahead and decide to subscribe without even getting the free thing. So I’m a little, I’m a little perplexed. I gotta tell you about the whole I think people want a time to just try to buy an answer, you know, they want to go, okay it costs $60 and there’s 140 things I get instant access to. So if I buy it, I’m just done and I don’t have to think about this again. And so I think sometimes people do that and so, but it is getting people to get the $20 thing, they just don’t have as much of an interest in it.
Speaker 2: 01:04:03 And I think it’s because I don’t want to get charged $20 again next month. $60 a year seems like a lot less than $20 a month even though you could stop after the first month. That’s weird. Pricing is like one of the most intense things actually you can cause you know, here’s the thing, pricing doesn’t really matter. Like, if I tell you that my point is what I’m doing you gonna come to my play and my play, I’m like, it’s going to cost $15 which is what a play ticket might cost most places. You know it’s going to be a $15 play. If I say it’s a $30 expense, you’re going to take it to $30 play, which you’re going to assume it’s going to be significantly better. So why wouldn’t I say it’s a $30 play and why wouldn’t I make it a plate that was worth $30?
Speaker 2: 01:04:52 Like what could possibly be the difference in expenditure between making a play that’s good enough for $20 this is one that’s good. Or $50 for one to $30 might as well make it the $30 play. It’s like, so people arbitrarily pick the price of their, of what they’re going to sell and I’m like, I don’t know about you, but when I go out for a date, I’m the chance that I’m gonna, you know, get out from that. So less than 80 or $100 for a weekend night. It’s really pretty small, especially if this going to be a play involved. So it’s kind of like, I mean, you might as well figure out how to make your play with $30 and the other thing is I don’t really understand why a lot of I don’t really understand why a lot of people that are doing plays or performances, which I think are really the best possible form of marketing.
Speaker 2: 01:05:43 You know, I say, you know, have a bottle of wine and you know, pass out wine when people first come in, right? I mean doesn’t cost that much to buy the wine. And that way they know that they’re welcome and that you’re really glad that they came and also maybe puts them in a better state of mind to really enjoy your worth. And it sets you apart and it’s a cheap benefit. And if they’re going to charge $30, particularly, you have $5 money to pay for the ones. But I know it sounds stupid, but it’s like, you know, pricing is just one of those things that people are really arbitrary about. So not very good reasons. Usually what you should do is look around at what other people are charging and charge, not the, not the highest, but maybe the next level down and then make it that good, make it worth that, make it a good value is my point.
Speaker 3: 01:06:31 I think that I don’t know if you knew, did you hear about the pricing for sticks and stones? Did Dave Chappelle special. Okay. And then I’ll let you go. So bass Apelle he had this Netflix special called sticks and stone and it’s like one of the top whatever. And so anyway, he filmed it here in Atlanta and then, you know, he’s gone around the country, so he had another filming in New York. And so he goes in, in the same Netflix special at the end. He goes I don’t, I’m not giving it away cause it’s been out for like two months now. So in New York, he’s like, you asshole spent $800 to come to my show. Whereas in Atlanta it was $60 like you could have flown to Atlanta, had a nice dinner and hotel and still made money then coming to New York. And so it was just interesting as a pricing and the elasticity of what people will actually pay for what you’re providing.
Speaker 2: 01:07:29 If I go around and talking to folks who paid me 800 but I would, but I would, I mean I think it’s worth pointing out to people that they’re, that Atlanta gets some good stuff. You know what I’m saying? Like that’s, that’s a powerful thing to tell people, Hey, you know, maybe the parties in Atlanta, maybe that’s where things really people should be going. And I think I have to say, I think music is one of the hardest things. You know, people in an hour, days when we were younger, people made most of their money off of albums. So nowadays performers have to go on tour in order to make money. And I think if you’re a musician, it’s making a lot of sense for you to figure out how to do shows and how to make the shows worthwhile and to start thinking in terms of, of creating networks of people. You know, like I, I know several people in my net worth the warm musicians, they basically, and it’s true for comics do ugly, they have locations around the country, they kind of have this tour and to some degree it’s going to people’s houses and it’s, in some places it’s going to like small bars and places like that, but they’ve created this network that allows them to earn a, you know, a reasonable living doing the work.
Speaker 2: 01:08:47 Excuse me. So I think that that’s kind of an interesting thing for people to think about is if I have a, if I have, if I have a blues band, how much should I be charging per ticket and can I get that money more directly instead of having to just go to someplace and, you know, get paid, you know, a frat, a tiny fraction of what? Of the door, right? How can I make this work? You know, because there’s bars all over the country and maybe if you bring your band you can make it so that you, you know, you actually gather the people at that location and you’re actually the one taking the money but the other way around and the hour
Speaker 1: 01:09:26 Has flown by and I’m sure we just touched the surface of helping creative minds earn more for your work and how to monetize that. And where could they find out? Again, we talked about your site, but if you can give out your site again and how people get in touch with you, that’d be phenomenal.
Speaker 2: 01:09:43 Great. I mean, my stuff is really just a one events. I’m on a regular basis and I have a whole bunch of previously recorded resources talking about things like how to raise money from investors, new regulation D private placements or like sort of all the sort of really technical stuff that people know need to know in order to earn a living from their work as well as topics like how to gather an audience. If they go to Nancy meetups.com they can find something that they can check out for free. And it’s one of my favorite workshops specifically because it does talk about a bunch of different ways to monetize your work immediately start monetizing it with music. And I also have, I do have like a subscription based program and it’s mostly because a lot of times I’ve started offering this description just because there were so many people that would, they would, I run an event and they’d pay me court and then, you know, they’d go to the next event and they’d pay me for another one.
Speaker 2: 01:10:43 And at some point, you know, it’s like I’m running 46 events a month. It was like, I think I’m taking up too much of your money wasn’t talking to me again. So I started just basically saying it’s like the frequent flyer thing, which is the called pro subscriber. And it basically, it’s a $60 a year. I mean the price varies over time. Like it’ll probably end up going up in the new year just because I’ll have so much more content available. But so people should check it out sooner rather than later. But the black Friday, it’s more like, it’s more like the end of the year pace is actually what it is cause the cause cause the price is going up based upon the cause I have 140 things up there. And so next year, by the end of next year I’ll probably have like 180 things up. So when they’re, so they’re buying for the year ahead and it’s just I have this so you know, it would probably go up to $80. It’s not going to kill anybody, the Bible. So if people have questions they can always email me at Nancy at [inaudible] dot com.
Speaker 1: 01:11:47 Awesome. Well you have just been attuned to another episode of intrinsic motivation from a homeys perspective. This is Hamza and Nancy Fulton. It was a pleasure. Let’s definitely stay in touch.
Speaker 2: 01:11:58 Absolutely. I look forward to learning more about your work. I really liked the, I really liked the, when I was coming onto the show and I took a look at the stuff that you were creating, it was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: 01:12:08 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, we won’t be strangers for sure. Take care. Have a good weekend.
Speaker 2: 01:12:17 You too. Thank you so much. I really had a big time.